From dennehym@cs.tcd.ie Sat Jan 12 16:43:49 2002 Return-path: Envelope-to: dennehym@localhost Delivery-date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:43:49 +0000 Received: from dennehym by sparks.cs.tcd.ie with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16PRFt-0001Iu-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:43:41 +0000 Received: from mail.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.32.56] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.9.0) for dennehym@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:43:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.cs.tcd.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19944 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:43:02 GMT Received: from sdn-ar-002inthaup314.dialsprint.net ([158.252.109.92] helo=raym-pc-1.indy.net) by atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16PQWq-0006EJ-00; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:57:09 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20020112102230.02ef60d0@pop.indy.net> X-Sender: topshot@pop.indy.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:57:33 -0500 To: topshot@indy.net From: Michael Ray Subject: UIT Mailing List Vol. 6 - #13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-566410776==_.ALT" X-UIDL: aLf!!Q(5!!mN##!Lc`"! Sender: Mark Dennehy Status: RO Content-Length: 99542 Lines: 2200 --=====================_-566410776==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. To subscribe to the "real-time" version of the list send an email to uit_mailing_list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In this issue: Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters Psychology (was Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters) Re: Psychology Re: Psychology Re: Psychology Re: Psychology Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Re: Switch to contacts? Shoulder contact in prone Re: Shoulder contact in prone Re: Shoulder contact in prone Walther stock breakage experience Re: Walther stock breakage experience Re: Walther stock breakage experience 2002CA for sale ******************************************************************** Chet Skinner wrote: > Sighting is effected by the mind and not the eye or conscious entity.=20 Sighting is developed internal of the mind and the necessary adjusting=20 instructions are issued to the neuromuscular system. Such instructions=20 carry the micro movements necessary to refine the sight and bull alignment= =20 prior to and during the trigger pull phase. I dont agree. Sighting *is* effected by the eye .. if it wasn't then blind= =20 people would be just as good at this as the rest of us. Its a matter of=20 data coming in from the eye and being processed by the brain, sure a lot=20 goes on in your subconcious, but the eye provides the data. Good data=20 allows you to make good decisions .. poor data? .. well you might make a=20 good decision, but its harder work. > Glasses and eye functioning to the conscious is nothing more than=20 external data that will prove or disprove the correctness of the mental=20 process and results. The external information received from the five senses= =20 only serve as a model or pattern that will validate or invalidate the=20 analysis and instructions issued to the neuromuscular system during the=20 shooting technique. translation: the picture seen by the eye is compared with a desired result= =20 and used as feedback to the aiming process. > Regardless of the age, the shooter only needs to clearly see the front=20 sight. The fuzzy information or that which you note in the peripheral of=20 the eye is the important aspect of any sighting ability. For this, glasses= =20 have no useful purpose. The ability of the eye to see things is crucial. Sure your brain can work=20 with a 'fuzzy' sight picture .. but it works a hell of a lot better with=20 sharp one. Glasses are there to correct problems with the optical=20 components of the eye. We are (mostly) born with perfect vision as we age=20 it deteriorates due to changes in the lens and muscles of the eye, glasses= =20 simply cancel out those changes ( or at least attempt to). There is nothing= =20 to be gained from giving poor quality feedback to the brain. > Glasses adjusted for the focal length that is registered from the eye to= =20 the front sight is all that is required. In my case, wear glasses to=20 compute and read but to sight I need none. For mild short and long sightedness there is no need to use glasses, you=20 can just strain the muscles of your eye a bit more, and the 'pinhole=20 effect' increases the depth of field anyway.[1] Of course if you do choose= =20 to correct the vision with glasses then you will strain the muscles less=20 and be able to hold a clear sight picture for longer. For shooters with any= =20 degree of astigmatism glasses are a 'must' .. no amount of straining your eye muscles will correct the astigmatism .. ( next time=20 you shoot check that sight picture .. does it appear 'egg' shaped or fuzzy= =20 along one axis yet sharp in another? .. go get an eye test and a lens made= =20 up .. your scores will improve I guarantee). I'll agree that the most commonly used technique is to hold the foresight=20 in sharp focus and not worry that the bull is slightly fuzzy, but there is= =20 nothing to be gained from having that bull any fuzzier than it need be. > My unconscious as you will does all the analysis and directs adjustment= =20 necessary to effect a sight alignment for achieving the perfect bulls eye. I presume here you are talking about the 'automatic response' that takes=20 over for very practised shooters and runs the firing sequence for you. [1] Whislt not saying that the learned response play no part, they *do* benefit= =20 from good information being fed in by the eye. Theres a well known computer= =20 dictum: "garbage in .. garbage out' .... > The unconscious mental entity through analysis sets the muscles to=20 affect the perfect bull eye. It uses the center of mass as the target goal= =20 for the adjustment necessary. While this is projected from fuzzy objects it= =20 is nevertheless an ability of the mental entity that takes the center of=20 mass from any fuzzy object and produces a higher level of precision than=20 any mechanical device such as the sights can produce. The brain is very very good at arranging concentric circles ... better than= =20 we are at the concious level. Good shooters know this and allow the brain=20 to get on with it and don;t worry about it too much. Suggesting that the=20 quality of information recieved has no effect is just plain wrong. hmmm .. lots of words in the next paragraph .. not sure they mean a whole=20 lot. lets split it up and see what is being said. > Because we live and work in the conscious level, it is very hard for us= =20 to understand this simple fact. umm .. its not a fact .. its your view on things. a fact is something like= =20 'your eyes change with age' or 'glasses correct changes in the optical=20 systems of the eye' those are facts the rest is opinion. > Our center of the shooting function is in fact centered in and around=20 the unconscious cortical nodes of our mental system. 'center of the shooting function' ... 'unconcious cortical nodes' ... sorry= =20 .. you've lost me. > With its analysis or responses from the 5 senses and with the response=20 from the kinesthetic system we have our technical precision sighting= technique. Im still not sure what that means ... I can't help thinking that the last=20 time I read anything like that it was on the handouts at a managment course= ... anyway .. I say again: .. 'garbage in ... garbage out' modern competition=20 shooting tests to the limit the skills of the athlete and his/her equpment= =20 .. theres no point making it any harder than it need be. Sure the=20 subconcious plays a part ( and for a very practised shooters who are=20 prepared to 'let go' a very large part) but it still needs good sighting=20 equipment. Glasses to correct your vision so you can hold a clear sight picture with little effort, the right amount of eye relief, an= =20 adjustable iris to match the lighting conditions, filters to help in very=20 bright and very dull conditions. All these help give the brain the good=20 quality data it needs. It will get by on less, but the results will suffer. [1] very practised shooters become able to shoot on 'autopilot' .. the=20 final stages of aiming and trigger release being controlled without=20 concious effort .. the subconcious has done the procedure so many times it= =20 needs no further direction from the concious. This is one reason you should= =20 *always* 'go for gold' or you can end up teaching your sub-concious bad=20 habits! Modern sports psychologists refer to 'initiator sequences' that trigger the brain to go to autopilot ... Robin ******************************************************************** Robin Has validated the message I had presented to the list on sighting.=20 Let me show you with his or her words why the eye cannot be trusted and the= =20 mind is still capable of determining the center of mass even with an egg=20 shaped target. "For mild short and long sightedness there is no need to use glasses, you=20 can just strain the muscles of your eye a bit more, and the 'pinhole=20 effect' increases the depth of field anyway.[1] Of course if you do choose= =20 to correct the vision with glasses then you will strain the muscles less=20 and be able to hold a clear sight picture for longer. For shooters with any= =20 degree of astigmatism glasses are a 'must' .. no amount of straining your eye muscles will correct the astigmatism .. ( next time=20 you shoot check that sight picture .. does it appear 'egg' shaped or fuzzy= =20 along one axis yet sharp in another? .. go get an eye test and a lens made= =20 up .. your scores will improve I guarantee)." ///That is about it but let us read Robins own admission first./// Chet wrote: "> With its analysis or responses from the 5 senses and with the response=20 from the kinesthetic system we have our technical precision sighting=20 technique." Robin wrote: "I'm still not sure what that means ... I can't help thinking that the last= =20 time I read anything like that it was on the handouts at a management=20 course ..." ///We have to only go to Webster's Dictionary to find out what or to define= =20 the subconscious. Conscious is defined as being conscious of an external object, state or= fact. The word conscious means awareness. So when a person uses the word or state= of consciousness they are in fact saying that they are aware of all external objects or states of fact. When involved with mental work, it is understood that the normal state of conscious life, which the person is aware of, is contrasted with unconscious processes. Consciousness is characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought. This input is derived from the 5 senses. It does not involved the 6th sense, which is the kinethetics, which is the sense mediated by the end organs, located in the muscles and tendons. The reporting of the sensory= experiences, positioning of the body movements and tensions as derived by the sensory experiences derived from this kinesthesia. We have covered the word of consciousness; now let us investigate the word Subconscious. The word is defined as existing in the mind but not= immediately available to the consciousness. The mental state of subconscious is found to be imperfect or incomplete conscious state activities just below the= threshold of consciousness. So where does this leave us but that the word of consciousness means= awareness and that the word sub consciousness is a state of imperfection that is not quite completely conscious. This implies that the conscious may often have other functions to take care of and allows or directs the subconscious to automatically monitor the five senses during this conscious functional= period. This then leaves us with the last mental function of unconsciousness, which involves the inner functions of the cortex and autonomic systems. The word unconscious is hard to define, as the definers really did not fully= understand it's functioning. But, we may attempt its definition as a part of the mental apparatus that does not ordinarily center on the individual's awareness and= =20 yet manifested its self-overt behavior such as dissociated acts (neuromuscular functioning). Not marked by conscious or subconscious thought, sensations,= or feelings such as would be received from the 5 senses. The unconscious mental entity is further defined as not knowing or perceiving which means not=20 aware or free from self-awareness. Not marked by conscious thought, sensations. The main reason for this is the fact that the unconscious takes it basic requirement from permanent memory instead from the input of the 5 senses.= For this reason we hold that the unconscious is free from self-awareness or consciousness. How does this affect the autonomic and cortex systems...? We must also define what the autonomic nervous system is...? A part of the vertebrate nervous system that innervates smooth and cardiac muscle and glandular tissues and governs involuntary actions and that= consist of the sympathic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system./// Hope this answers everyone's question. Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** Chet, I hate to say this, but if my shooting coach in High School had said even 1/10th of what you just said in your explanation, I would have been out of that shooting range so fast it would have made his head spin. I want to be a good shooter, not a good psychotherapist. I want to just be able to hit the 10 ring most of the time... not necessarily know why I was able to hit it, just know that I *can* hit it. Granted, I do believe in relaxing my consciousness level in preparing to shoot so my heart beat slows, my muscles relax, etc. but once I am on the firing line it is just my eyes (with glasses) my sights and my finger to pull the trigger and that is it. I don't think about anything else during live firing, otherwise I would be too distracted. I am a scratch golfer as well, and I see far too many people thinking about 20 different things at one time while they are standing over the ball about to hit it and then hit a bad shot anyway because they are trying to do too many things at once. Then they watch me hit and gaze at the ball as it rockets 100 yards or sometimes more past theirs and they always ask, "How did you do that?!?" I always tell them the same thing, "I think about 2 or 3 things setting up for the shot , and once I am ready over the ball , I just think of my target and following through to it and let my body and the club do the rest." Since I have been a golf professional and instructor for the past several years I do feel qualified to make this analogy from golf to shooting in case anyone was wondering. I am paying a lot more attention to everyone's posts on this list to get as much GOOD information as possible so I can become a top of the line shooter. And while your information may be "good" in its own right, Chet, I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about. Maybe one day I will get a grasp of some of it, but I am a pretty smart guy, and barring going back to school for a PhD., I might sadly never learn what your last e-mail was all about. This was just my 2 cents... Again, I am glad I remained on this list, the longer I stick with it, the more I learn. Thanks everyone! Vince Joaquin ******************************************************************** Vince wrote, I want to be a good shooter, not a good psychotherapist. I want to just be able to hit the 10 ring most of the time... not necessarily know why I was able to hit it, just know that I *can* hit it. ///The basic shooter of the past currently begins his or her shooting technique by developing their total shooting effort from the conscious mental entity. Yet, the correct location to commence the shooting technique is from the unconscious mental entity. It is here you learn to be a good shooting athlete and not from the conscious level or subconscious level of the mental entity. The conscious and subconscious is not connected to the neuromuscular system, which is the domain of the cortical mass. When an athlete uses the conscious and subconscious, the only results are randomized results. The shooting athlete who removes the errors in their technique will win the gold. How does the shooting athlete remove errors? By fully understanding the working elements of the mind and how they may hinder or assist the shooting athlete in winning their goal. By fully understanding= the minds functioning you learn how the mind works and can use its functioning= to assist you instead for hindering you as happens in the conscious mental level. /// Granted, I do believe in relaxing my consciousness level in preparing to shoot so my heart beat slows, my muscles relax, etc. but once I am on the firing line it is just my eyes (with glasses) my sights and my finger to pull the trigger and that is it. I don't think about anything else during live firing, otherwise I would be too distracted. ///You don't have to think of any other thing but your perfect bull's-eye results and goal with the supporting mental technique for accomplishing the Perfect one-shot-match which results in the perfect bull's-eye. Once your mind has analyzed the effort and placed it into permanent memory, it becomes an automatic function and you will not have to think about it. The unconscious mental entity will do that for you without your knowledge. In all cases the mind commits to a given function or technique and completes it in the first =BE of a second of mental effort. The same occurs in the Golf swing. /// I am a scratch golfer as well, and I see far too many people thinking about 20 different things at one time while they are standing over the ball about to hit it and then hit a bad shot anyway because they are trying to do too many things at once. ///Yes you're correct as I have many times observed the same thing in golf, swimming, shooting in rifle-shotgun-and pistol. This abuse of mental ability is what causes so many errors in technique for any athlete. They have failed to learn the correct mental functions and used these functions to their advantage during the athlete activity. In my book I developed a system to remove this functional error. Two mental entities exist in which one is passive and the other is active. The passive or conscious mental entity takes on the duties of virtual coach and does nothing but monitor the ongoing shooting technique. Any noted errors in technique the Dominant mental entity (conscious) and the command to break the circuit is issued and the athlete must stop an start over again from the get go. In this way the conscious mental entity will not be permitted to generate spontaneous thought which will disrupt the over all mental shooting technique. As spontaneous thought is also thoughts of fear or doubt, such negative thoughts are eliminated from the mental system before they are disrupting to the overall mental functioning. Several psychologists have commented favorably on this simple technique. /// Then they watch me hit and gaze at the ball as it rockets 100 yards or sometimes more past theirs and they always ask, "How did you do that?!?" I always tell them the same thing, "I think about 2 or 3 things setting up for the shot , and once I am ready over the ball , I just think of my target and following through to it and let my body and the club do the rest." ///Very good work. You have cleared your mind of all spontaneous negative thought and concentrated upon the wing technique to follow through. But one important fact was ignored and that is from the top of the swing to the ball impact, the =BE of a second mental timing sequence occurred and you thought= or held as the swing goal being a location at which the ball will impact. Your swing and power is gauged and implemented accordingly by the unconscious mental entity. Swing speed and wrist release with balance adjustment was the authority of the unconscious mental entity to place the ball or bullet exactly on the spot predetermined you wanted to achieve. You see I also am a past Golf Professional and I taught this same technique for many years./// Since I have been golf professional and instructor for the past several years I do feel qualified to make this analogy from golf to shooting in case anyone was wondering. I am paying a lot more attention to everyone's posts on this list to get as much GOOD information as possible so I can become a top of the line shooter. And while your information may be "good" in its own right, Chet, I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about. Maybe one day I will get a grasp of some of it, but I am a pretty smart guy, and barring going back to school for a PhD., I might sadly never learn what your last e-mail was all about. /// Vince, any coach that will not take the time to learn the psychology and physiology is not really coaching or instructing but only herding a bunch of athletes around the different competitions. The shooter or golfer must learn how to make the human body and its mental entities work for that athlete and not against. /// Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** Oh boy , this is getting good! Hi Vince, and all.As long as You have a teacher You'll learn something and= =20 as the teacher has a pupil he'll learn something, too! I got in to this list by chance, "hijacked" by M. Ray.He got me on a=20 "technical note". I'm into rifleshooting, bigtime, and all I can get my mind into regarding=20 this topic helps me in my life.Golfers or rifleshooters have it the same=20 way, the only major difference is the money.I spend a lot on ammo and=20 travel, and when I had time for golf I spent some money on that (hcp15) as= =20 well. Training sessions with either take several hours and at least I go about it= =20 in a "technical way". Before You got that perfect swing I bet You had to=20 spend hours on the driving range.I do that on the shooting range, about=20 1000 hours a year.I've done that for about 10 years plus, now. Is it still fun?Of course,it's my life we're talking about.I enjoy=20 everything that is done to make my day.This list helps me going where I=20 want.The amount can be discussed,but as I said, I'm still the pupil and I=20 am open to new ideas. Please, open up,write more about the ways You go about Your mindgames when= =20 playing golf.The synergy? should be here for us.Golf is good for both the=20 mental and physical part used in rifleshooting,my opinion. I think of the golfswing,take the swing and see the result.The more I=20 practice,set my mind to it, the more I just "do" the swing,subconcious and= =20 after a long time(years) I'll do it automatically.I do it the same way with= =20 shooting; figureing a way to do things,then I do it because I have trained= =20 specificially on this and when I need it in a competition, I (hopefully) do= =20 it automatically. To get You started,Vince, I would like to see You drive the ball 350=20 yards,all day,and then I would probably say, why do You do it? To all of you, keep up the writing, it's my life you are seasoning. =D8yvind from Stavanger ,Norway [Editor - And I'm quite glad I did "hijack" him! His replies to my=20 questions were very knowledgeable and technical (something I like). Little= =20 did I know he is a current world record holder in 300m.] ******************************************************************** Chet, Thank you for your reply, this time it made a lot more sense (in my eyes anyway). I appreciate the time everyone takes in offering advice, and in my case, explaining it once or twice so I can really grasp it. Like I said, I wanted to know what you were saying and know someday it might help make me a better shooter and possibly golfer as well. Thanks, Chet, for the insight. =D8yvind from Stavanger, Norway. Writes: > To get You started, Vince, I would like to see You drive the ball 350 yards, all day, and then I would probably say, why do You do it? Well =D8yvind, regrettably I don't drive the ball 350 yards every time. Nor do I hit it straight down the middle of the fairway or right next to the pin every time either, but a good percentage of the time I do, and really that is all one needs to do in golf. Unlike shooting, where winning you need to be perfect about every time in the Olympics or International competitions. Why would *I* do it, you ask. Well, why does Tiger Woods do it even though he can do exactly what you propose? He does it because it is fun, it is competitive, and he likes WINNING. Just because he wins a lot and can outdrive everyone else on the PGA Tour day in and day out doesn't make it any less fun for him, nor would it me. And I think there is one other thing I should note, I got into golf as a bet in my junior year in high school that I couldn't make the golf team that fall in my senior year. I had never really hit a golf ball at all before that except for when my golfing grandfather came into town and wanted to take me to the driving range with him when I was younger. Within 6 months of the bet, I was almost a scratch golfer and really don't practice all that much to keep my skills. I live in a cold winter climate (Wisconsin, USA) and don't practice at all for a good 4 months due to snow, yet in the spring I pick up my clubs and can still go out and shoot close to par. I can't explain it. Acquired talent I guess? This really relates to my shooting, which I began in 7th grade when I was 12 years old. My coach wouldn't let any new shooters touch a rifle for at least 2 weeks until we learned SAFETY and TECHNIQUES of shooting. After two weeks we were gradually worked into live firing. The first time I actually was allowed to fire a 10-shot target I stunned not only myself, but my coach as well. I fired a 73/100 in the prone position my first go at it. Granted, after that I was hooked, and I practiced each weekday after school with the shooting team's practice squad for a few hours. By the time I was in 9th grade I had qualified for the varsity shooting team and was one of the better shooters (at the time "sub-junior" category) in the state and region. By the end of 9th grade I was actually able to match other varsity team shooters shot for shot, me in the standing position, them in the prone position, which is something my father actually did when he was on the SAME shooting team with the SAME rifle coach. (Amazing, I know, the coach hung in there for a lot of years!!!) Evidently, the coach was doing something right if he could make very good shooters in two generations. But my point is, I feel that no matter how much you practice, you need some "natural" talent to be able to compete at a high level in any sport. I was never taught "synergy" or "subconscious" in either golf or shooting. But somehow without me knowing it, they worked their way into my mind. I know when a golfer is really playing well in a tournament on Tour, the broadcasters sometimes refer to that player as "unconscious", like his body is doing all the work that it has been trained to do without the interference of his mind. And I tend to agree with that. There comes a point when golfers/shooters can just set themselves up to their target and then let the "subconscious" mind take over thereby negating any adverse mental thoughts and only focusing on the task at hand. It is pure brilliance, in my mind, if a person is able to achieve this mental equilibrium. I haven't yet, but maybe one day I will. Thanks for the replies, Chet and =D8yvind, and keep hitting 10's. Vince Joaquin ******************************************************************** Thank you very much Vince. Wish you would stop using the word Subconscious= =20 as it has little or nothing to do with technique. However, the Unconscious= =20 does have a major impact upon the mental and physical functioning. Tiger=20 uses a pure mental golfing technique that his father taught him. Many think= =20 the unconscious does nothing but, in fact it is operating 24 hours a day=20 and is the reason for the flashes of automatic functioning. Commonly it is= =20 the unconscious that is doing the work and the subconscious that get the=20 acknowledgements although not deserved. The mental technique is the worker in all cases except when the athlete=20 cannot get out of the conscious mode. In every mental case what you think=20 is what you will get. That includes club angle at impact. If you have any=20 fear that the ball will go left or right that is the way it will go. This=20 is because during the down swing the club head will realign to accomplish=20 that slice or what every you had in your mind at the time. Let us consider shooting for a moment. The physical or conscious shooter=20 will experience angular and parallel errors in alignment for physical sight= =20 alignment and sighting functions but when the shooter uses the mental=20 technique this goes away and the two errors are eliminated during the=20 technique. During the mental sighting technique the two errors in sighting do not=20 occur or do not exist and the athlete that eliminated all the personal=20 errors in technique will win the gold..or the hole in one as the case may=20 be....! Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** While its been interesting reading the posts the past few days, I think my original question got lost in the ether... Is there a preference in contacts vs. glasses? If so, why? That's all, simple really. I understand the mental aspects of recent discussion, however that's not what I'd asked. At some point, light has to physically pass through the sights, through the lenses of some optics (either the eye or the eye aided with external optics), and onto the retina before going off to the brain for processing. This is the part I'm concerned with, right now. Also, before anyone says "Heck, you don't even need glasses. I can shoot without them". While its true that many could possibly get by without them, others couldn't even find their gear without some optical help (much less point the rifle in the right direction or hit the target). I'm not interested in shooting at fuzzy targets. The rules allow optics to help me see, the DMV says I have to wear them to drive, I have to use them to read, so I'm going to use them. I'm interested in getting the best possible sight picture into my eyeball, so the brain and mental processes can take over. I also don't want to get into a "The bull is 'not really' black because is absorbs light, hence it actually consists of all colors" type discussion. Simple question, relatively simple answers. Thanks, Mark ******************************************************************** Mark, In response to your question... I shoot with glasses and, like you, would probably not be able to hit the side of a barn without them, even if I was inside the barn with the doors closed! However, I never tried shooting with contacts because I have a pretty severe astigmatism and the contacts that us folk with astigmatisms require have special miniature "weights" to keep them in the correct position on the eye. For me, those "weights" kept spinning, so every time I would blink I would lose focus. So glasses it is for me. Like you said, I probably could shoot without them, but shoot what I have no idea. If your contacts stay in focus, I would imagine that they might give you a minimal advantage over glasses in that 1. They don't fog up (although I use anti-fog sticks to prevent that with my glasses), 2. They are right on your eye and maximize the corrections in your prescription, and 3. They won't slide down your nose from sweat or get knocked askew by the rifle on your 79th shot in the 3x40 causing you to miss the target all together and become the laughing stock of the competition (just joking). hehe Hope this helps! Vince Joaquin ******************************************************************** It's my understanding you don't get a choice, you should be wearing glasses anyway for safety reasons. Contacts provide no safety advantage and might even trap dirt such as flakes of unburned powder. So if the choice is glasses or both, it would seem more comfortable to wear just the glasses. The problem with prescription glasses is in getting things adjusted so you can see through the optical centers. This is much less important for plain safety glasses. I think that especially in prone, looking through the center of normal glasses is nowhere near possible, so you will need prescription lenses installed in a special adjustable shooting frame; there are at least 3 companies making these but they are not cheap. As long as you don't need special astigmatism correction, you can easily order the amount of focus correction you need at the same time you buy the frames. Since you are not looking straight ahead, you eyeball might warp slightly and cause the contacts to pop loose or otherwise mess up your shot. But I use plain lenses and no contacts, so I don't know what problems actually happen with them. - Benjamin ******************************************************************** From what I have read about glasses versus contacts is that the contacts move around the eye while shooting giving you a different view with a shift in impact point from shot to shot. Regards, Gerald. ******************************************************************** Simple non-technical recommendation: At Bisley and shoots around the U.K., I have met multiple people who avoid contacts like the plague, due to their ability to trap debris (sand, residue etc). Once the debris is in place, it can cause BAD irritation and potentially scratch the surface of the eye. ******************************************************************** On the other hand, I know two people who have Commonwealth Games medals and have represented GBR at European and World Championships who shoot in contacts. I tried them, and the sight picture was better than glasses for me, and not having glasses battering off the rearsight was wonderful. Unfortunately I have dry eyes and suffer from hay fever and found that the lenses became a liability in dry and/or dusty conditions. Donald ******************************************************************** I bought the 'Champion World-2' frames from Stewards of Bisley. If you're in the UK I can thouroughly recommend their service. I can dig out the address and phone number if anyones needs it. theres a FAQ http://www.precision-sports.com/qchamp.htm the Champion shooting frames come in 3 flavours, World (basic) World-2(middle) and Olympic(Luxury) ... I'd reccomend the World-2 as its= only slightly more expensive than the basic, but you do get the soft nose peice and its adjustable for height, which is worth having, the Olympic has loads of adjustments, but when you've set them once, you are unlikely ever to move them, so save your money. ( it might be useful for 3P i guess, but I just do prone) The impotant point is they allow you to pivot and twist the lens so it is at 90 degrees to the sight, which you can't do with normal glasses. Before paying out the money, try this. Does your sight have (or can you borrow) a rubber eye cup? .. well .. why not pop a lens out of your normal glasses (yes, sure the prescription may not be the same ...) and attach it with Blu-Tak or tape to the eye cup and try it for a couple of cards ... I have an iris with so I took a lens out of my normal glasses and got my wife to take it in and out of position whilst I sighted on a target. The difference was significant and I ordered the frames the very next day. I gained around 1.5 points too ;) --=20 Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** I know a couple of people who shoot at international level, who use contact lenses. If I didn't have astigmatism, I'd be severely tempted too....... I used to wear gas-permeable (fairly rigid, hard lenses) and shot smallbore happily with them. After an embarrassing incident during a service rifle match (went rapidly into a kneeling position, rubber eyecup on optic sight hit my eyebrow, lens popped out) at the Scottish championships, I switched from the smaller iris-covering lenses to larger soft lenses. Greater comfort was another factor. Since moving to soft lenses ten years ago, I have had far less problems with grit in my eyes (particularly relevant in service rifle, because of the increased muzzle blast and its ability to kick up sand and dirt, and also because the ranges concerned are by the seaside and are mostly sand......) I then found (I presume because of the increased water content of the lens) that I had problems using the softer lenses when shooting smallbore, in terms of optical quality. Other people are perfectly happy with soft lenses, however. Maybe my technique was at fault at the time I tried, in that I was staring for too long. In terms of optical quality, glasses will give you a better picture; they can be more accurately and consistently made to fit your prescription. However, (as I keep pointing out to Chet) vision in competition is not just about a perfect sight picture; it's also about being aware of your surroundings, specifically about watching what the wind is doing. If your glasses are aligned properly, you may not have any corrected vision off-axis without moving your head; not good if you want to look further up the range to see if a lull in the wind is coming. Contact lenses are an advantage in this situation. My partial solution is to use 42mm pistol lenses in my shooting glasses rather than the 21mm rifle lens holders (I use a Champion frame). As ever, your mileage may vary...... Martin Sinclair ******************************************************************** Hi Mark, The answer to your question is if you wear contacts wear glasses=20 to protect them as sand and dust or used powder from the range will cause=20 scratches on the eye balls and cause major problems for you not to mention= =20 the pain. Several of my athletes did wear contacts and never again. In the= =20 case of a blowback the pressure will hit the contacts and then go into the= =20 eye lids and around the eye ball to the inner section of the eye. Such=20 happening no one needs. Chet ******************************************************************** Mark, you asked about shooting with contacts. They are the only real alternative to getting the fully adjustable shooting glasses for rifle shooting. With regular everyday glasses you're not looking through the optical center of the lens when in position, so the image is distorted in many ways. Down side of contacts is dryness occasionally, and becoming aware of my right sighting eye by the end of a match. If you shoot high power, dust can be an issue too. With that said, I'm considering getting a pair of the fully adjustable frames. Best, Brian ******************************************************************** I have a question concerning the contact of the buttplate in the shoulder when shooting prone. I find that when I am in position, the contact between the top of the buttplate and my shoulder seems good, but the bottom does not fully contact the shoulder. As a result, the rifle is able to be rotated in the shoulder if I get someone to apply sideways pressure to it. I am wondering if this could be contributing to some of my difficulties in shooting prone. Am I correct in assuming that the contact between the shoulder and buttplate should be such that the rifle is incapable of this movement? Adjusting the vertical position of the buttplate doesn't seem to have much influence. I am presently using a relatively straight Anschutz buttplate. Would an alternate design (i.e. a buttplate having a more substantial curve) or a hook buttplate help? Alternatively, is a change in position warranted? Thanks in advance for any advice. Despite some of the previous comments that have surfaced, I've found this list to be a worthwhile read, even for those of us still near the base of the learning curve. Best Regards, Steve ******************************************************************** Steven, I currently shoot prone & 3-P with a Marlin 2000L whick has a very straight butplate. I don't seem to have any problems with contact in the shoulder, but I might have a slightly different position that you. I have the butplate a low as it can go. To eliminate the movement of the rifle, try to ensure that your sling is a tight as you can stand it, but not to cause pain. I hope that this helps. Continued success, Jim Bongiovanni ******************************************************************** Hi! Try this! Buttplate(and hook) need as much as possible "surfacecontact" with Your=20 body.Meaning, drape the butt and hook around the place You want it.I put=20 the butt and hook on top of my shoulder while I'm sitting.Then open up=20 everything that can be opened to make me fit it "onto" my body.Put the=20 right arm in the same position as when You shoot prone, and try to make the= =20 butt/hook stand straight up.Afterwards You can put it on the rifle and=20 adjust it for height.And, maybe sideways to get the eye to fit the sighting= =20 line.!Take it from there.As much surface into the buttplate as possible!The= =20 hook is used to get the rifle in the posistion where it is held in the=20 posistion I want it, without any sideways movements when recoiling.It=20 doesn't interfer with the movements of the recoil direction. =D8yvind ******************************************************************** >Mike, > >You can post this in the newsletter if you want, it may >help other from making the same mistake. My coaching partner and I bought >our rifles >at the same time, I bought a Anschutz 1913 and he bought a Walter KK2000 >with a >aluminum stock. About a month later while shooting a prone practice, a >crack was heard >and a chuck of rail broke out of the bottom of the Walther. We contact the >vendor who >sold us our rifles about replacing this "defective" stock with no success. >The vendor did send >a Anschutz 1913 handstop at no charge. The 1913 handstop was longer and >would bridge over the >broken area. Time goes on, and as we traveled to different matches we= would >hear other >stories about broken rails with the new aluminum stocks. (We heard of at >least six other >customer who had the same problem.) One of the things that bugged us was >that others had >their stock replaced with no problems. We send e-mails to Walther and >talked to the vendor >with no success. Finally when we were at the factory I talked to Sven >Martini about the >problem. He seemed surprised that we had trouble getting the problem= fixed. >When we >returned we took digital photos of the broken area and send them to Sven= at >Walther. >Sven agreed to replace the stock minus all of the hardware and sent out= the >new stock. >However the interesting part follows, they have seen this problem before, >and it is NOT due >to a defective stock. His first question was "Did you change handstop?" >The answer was >Yes, the handstop that Walther sent was small and my partner liked his old >Anschutz 1918 >handstop so he swapped. The problem is when you tighten the screw on the >old handstop >was to long and it bottomed out against the inside of the rail. This= forces >the hand stop away >from the stock and breaks out the top edges of the rail. > >I have left the names out to protect the innocent and the guilty! Live and >learn, hopefully some can learn from others mistakes... > >This is the letter that was sent to Walther: >Dear Sir: > >About 3 1/2 years ago I purchased a KK200 from xxxxxxxxxx, at >the National Smallbore Competition at Camp Perry. In less than 7 months a >3/4 inch piece of the rail broke out. I contacted xxxxxxxxxx from >xxxxxxxxxxx with the problem and he said the only thing he could do >was for me to purchase a new stock at the cost of $900 dollars. When I= told >him the value of my rifle had been severely diminished his only >recommendation was for me to purchase a Anshutz hand stop because it had a >longer bearing surface so I could continue to shoot the Walther. He also >stated that he had no knowledge of any problems with the rail channel and >nothing could be done. > >The UIT letter has many reports of the rails breaking on the KK200 and= many >of the reports are saying the Walther company is standing behind their >product and correcting the problem. My rifle is a great performer and it >always gets attention when ever I go to competitions. I own many Walther >firearms, GSP, GSPC and the OSP and these firearms have performed >flawlessly. > > >This is Walther response: >Sometime we have this problem, when the shooter use a handstop with a to >deep fixing screw. So does the handstop climing not only in the rail, the >screw goes deeper and make pressure up to the hand. So the rail break out. >In your case we would send you a chassi(frame). You assamble it and send= us >the damaged one bac.You havent to pay for this service. >Give me your adress, please. >Best Regards >Sven Martini >Service > > >Curt D. Ingersoll ******************************************************************** Just to let you know this is not limited only to Walther. Had the same thing happen to an Anschutz 2313 Aluminum stock. Neal Johnsons in Colorado springs would not warranty it. I had them mill out the bottom of the stock and inlet a new extruded rail insert. I did however have to pay for the work. Ed Knutson Glendale, California, USA ******************************************************************** Hi All, I have been shooting with the walther KK200PM for a couple of years now, the rifle I have has an extra sheath (as all PMs do I think) over the old handstop rail. It has never posed any problems, I think these can be bought seperatley if you want to add them to the KK200 sport. However I did crack the but plate buy tightening the screws to tight ! So just watch out for that. One shooter I know has had problems with the pistol grip snapping off as well. Walther were very quick to replace the defective product and I have nothing but praise for their customer service. Anyone who is looking for a second hand model, I would recomend getting one of the earliest stoks as these were machined and not cast and so should not pose any of these problems. They are unfortunatley hard to come by. Regards Rob Barclay ******************************************************************** I have for sale a used 2002ca alu. Its right handed and comes with a load=20 of stuff: 3 air cylinders 2 extra barrel weights MEC tube I can count the times I have shot this gun on both hands. I must have less than 2000 rounds through it. It is mint condition, no scraches, dinks or dents. I would like $1100.00 but I'm looking for a quick sell. Thanks -Ross Miller centershotkid@hotmail.com ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #13 Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm --=====================_-566410776==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me.

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In this issue:

Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters
Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters
Psychology (was Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters)
Re: Psychology
Re: Psychology
Re: Psychology
Re: Psychology
Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Re: Switch to contacts?
Shoulder contact in prone
Re: Shoulder contact in prone
Re: Shoulder contact in prone
Walther stock breakage experience
Re: Walther stock breakage experience
Re: Walther stock breakage experience
2002CA for sale

********************************************************************

Chet Skinner wrote:
> Sighting is effected by the mind and not the eye or conscious entity. Sighting is developed internal of the mind and the necessary adjusting instructions are issued to the neuromuscular system. Such instructions carry the micro movements necessary to refine the sight and bull alignment prior to and during the trigger pull phase.

I dont agree. Sighting *is* effected by the eye .. if it wasn't then blind people would be just as good at this as the rest of us. Its a matter of data coming in from the eye and being processed by the brain, sure a lot goes on in your subconcious, but the eye provides the data. Good data allows you to make good decisions .. poor data? .. well you might make a good decision, but its harder work.

> Glasses and eye functioning to the conscious is nothing more than external data that will prove or disprove the correctness of the mental process and results. The external information received from the five senses only serve as a model or pattern that will validate or invalidate the analysis and instructions issued to the neuromuscular system during the shooting technique.

translation: the picture seen by the eye is compared with a desired result and used as feedback to the aiming process.

> Regardless of the age, the shooter only needs to clearly see the front sight. The fuzzy information or that which you note in the peripheral of the eye is the important aspect of any sighting ability. For this, glasses have no useful purpose.

The ability of the eye to see things is crucial. Sure your brain can work with a 'fuzzy' sight picture .. but it works a hell of a lot better with sharp one. Glasses are there to correct problems with the optical components of the eye. We are (mostly) born with perfect vision as we age it deteriorates due to changes in the lens and muscles of the eye, glasses simply cancel out those changes ( or at least attempt to). There is nothing to be gained from giving poor quality feedback to the brain.

> Glasses adjusted for the focal length that is registered from the eye to the front sight is all that is required. In my case, wear glasses to compute and read but to sight I need none.

For mild short and long sightedness there is no need to use glasses, you can just strain the muscles of your eye a bit more, and the 'pinhole effect' increases the depth of field anyway.[1] Of course if you do choose to correct the vision with glasses then you will strain the muscles less and be able to hold a clear sight picture for longer. For shooters with any degree of astigmatism glasses are a 'must' .. no amount
of straining your eye muscles will correct the astigmatism .. ( next time you shoot check that sight picture .. does it appear 'egg' shaped or fuzzy along one axis yet sharp in another? .. go get an eye test and a lens made up .. your scores will improve I guarantee).
I'll agree that the most commonly used technique is to hold the foresight in sharp focus and not worry that the bull is slightly fuzzy, but there is nothing to be gained from having that bull any fuzzier than it need be.

> My unconscious as you will does all the analysis and directs adjustment necessary to effect a sight alignment for achieving the perfect bulls eye.

I presume here you are talking about the 'automatic response' that takes over for very practised shooters and runs the firing sequence for you. [1]
Whislt not saying that the learned response play no part, they *do* benefit from good information being fed in by the eye. Theres a well known computer dictum: "garbage in .. garbage out' ....

> The unconscious mental entity through analysis sets the muscles to affect the perfect bull eye. It uses the center of mass as the target goal for the adjustment necessary. While this is projected from fuzzy objects it is nevertheless an ability of the mental entity that takes the center of mass from any fuzzy object and produces a higher level of precision than any mechanical device such as the sights can=20 produce.

The brain is very very good at arranging concentric circles ... better than we are at the concious level. Good shooters know this and allow the brain to get on with it and don;t worry about it too much. Suggesting that the quality of information recieved has no effect is just plain wrong.

hmmm .. lots of words in the next paragraph .. not sure they mean a whole lot. lets split it up and see what is being said.

> Because we live and work in the conscious level, it is very hard for us to understand this simple fact.

umm .. its not a fact .. its your view on things. a fact is something like 'your eyes change with age' or 'glasses correct changes in the optical systems of the eye' those are facts the rest is opinion.

> Our center of the shooting function is in fact centered in and around the unconscious cortical nodes of our mental system.

'center of the shooting function' ... 'unconcious cortical nodes' ... sorry .. you've lost me.

> With its analysis or responses from the 5 senses and with the response from the kinesthetic system we have our technical precision sighting technique.

Im still not sure what that means ... I can't help thinking that the last time I read anything like that it was on the handouts at a managment course ...
anyway .. I say again: .. 'garbage in ... garbage out' modern competition shooting tests to the limit the skills of the athlete and his/her equpment .. theres no point making it any harder than it need be. Sure the subconcious plays a part ( and for a very practised shooters who are prepared to 'let go' a very large part) but it still needs good sighting equipment. Glasses to correct your vision so you can hold a
clear sight picture with little effort, the right amount of eye relief, an adjustable iris to match the lighting conditions, filters to help in very bright and very dull conditions. All these help give the brain the good quality data it needs. It will get by on less, but the results will suffer.

[1] very practised shooters become able to shoot on 'autopilot' .. the final stages of aiming and trigger release being controlled without concious effort .. the subconcious has done the procedure so many times it needs no further direction from the concious. This is one reason you should *always* 'go for gold' or you can end up teaching your sub-concious bad habits! Modern sports psychologists refer to 'initiator
sequences' that trigger the brain to go to autopilot ...

Robin

********************************************************************

Robin Has validated the message I had presented to the list on sighting. Let me show you with his or her words why the eye cannot be trusted and the mind is still capable of determining the center of mass even with an egg shaped target.

"For mild short and long sightedness there is no need to use glasses, you can just strain the muscles of your eye a bit more, and the 'pinhole effect' increases the depth of field anyway.[1] Of course if you do choose to correct the vision with glasses then you will strain the muscles less and be able to hold a clear sight picture for longer. For shooters with any degree of astigmatism glasses are a 'must' .. no amount
of straining your eye muscles will correct the astigmatism .. ( next time you shoot check that sight picture .. does it appear 'egg' shaped or fuzzy along one axis yet sharp in another? .. go get an eye test and a lens made up .. your scores will improve I guarantee)."

///That is about it but let us read Robins own admission first.///

Chet wrote:
"> With its analysis or responses from the 5 senses and with the response from the kinesthetic system we have our technical precision sighting technique."
Robin wrote:
"I'm still not sure what that means ... I can't help thinking that the last time I read anything like that it was on the handouts at a management course ..."

///We have to only go to Webster's Dictionary to find out what or to define the subconscious.

Conscious is defined as being conscious of an external object, state or fact.
The word conscious means awareness. So when a person uses the word or state of
consciousness they are in fact saying that they are aware of all external
objects or states of fact. When involved with mental work, it is understood
that the normal state of conscious life, which the person is aware of, is
contrasted with unconscious processes.
Consciousness is characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought.
This input is derived from the 5 senses. It does not involved the 6th sense,
which is the kinethetics, which is the sense mediated by the end organs,
located in the muscles and tendons. The reporting of the sensory experiences,
positioning of the body movements and tensions as derived by the sensory
experiences derived from this kinesthesia.
We have covered the word of consciousness; now let us investigate the word
Subconscious. The word is defined as existing in the mind but not immediately
available to the consciousness. The mental state of subconscious is found to
be imperfect or incomplete conscious state activities just below the threshold
of consciousness.
So where does this leave us but that the word of consciousness means awareness
and that the word sub consciousness is a state of imperfection that is not
quite completely conscious. This implies that the conscious may often have
other functions to take care of and allows or directs the subconscious to
automatically monitor the five senses during this conscious functional period.
This then leaves us with the last mental function of unconsciousness, which
involves the inner functions of the cortex and autonomic systems. The word
unconscious is hard to define, as the definers really did not fully understand
it's functioning. But, we may attempt its definition as a part of the mental
apparatus that does not ordinarily center on the individual's awareness and yet
manifested its self-overt behavior such as dissociated acts (neuromuscular
functioning). Not marked by conscious or subconscious thought, sensations, or
feelings such as would be received from the 5 senses. The unconscious mental
entity is further defined as not knowing or perceiving which means not aware or
free from self-awareness. Not marked by conscious thought, sensations. The
main reason for this is the fact that the unconscious takes it basic
requirement from permanent memory instead from the input of the 5 senses. For
this reason we hold that the unconscious is free from self-awareness or
consciousness.
How does this affect the autonomic and cortex systems...?
We must also define what the autonomic nervous system is...?
A part of the vertebrate nervous system that innervates smooth and cardiac
muscle and glandular tissues and governs involuntary actions and that consist
of the sympathic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system.///

Hope this answers everyone's question.
Chet Skinner, Coach

********************************************************************

Chet,
I hate to say this, but if my shooting coach in High School had said
even 1/10th of what you just said in your explanation, I would have been
out of that shooting range so fast it would have made his head spin. I
want to be a good shooter, not a good psychotherapist. I want to just
be able to hit the 10 ring most of the time... not necessarily know why
I was able to hit it, just know that I *can* hit it.
Granted, I do believe in relaxing my consciousness level in preparing to
shoot so my heart beat slows, my muscles relax, etc. but once I am on
the firing line it is just my eyes (with glasses) my sights and my
finger to pull the trigger and that is it. I don't think about anything
else during live firing, otherwise I would be too distracted.
I am a scratch golfer as well, and I see far too many people thinking
about 20 different things at one time while they are standing over the
ball about to hit it and then hit a bad shot anyway because they are
trying to do too many things at once. Then they watch me hit and gaze
at the ball as it rockets 100 yards or sometimes more past theirs and
they always ask, "How did you do that?!?"
I always tell them the same thing, "I think about 2 or 3 things setting
up for the shot <positioning body for shooting>, and once I am ready
over the ball <ready to fire>, I just think of my target and following
through to it and let my body and the club do the rest." <let the sights
rest on the target and squeeze the trigger.> Since I have been a golf
professional and instructor for the past several years I do feel
qualified to make this analogy from golf to shooting in case anyone was
wondering.
I am paying a lot more attention to everyone's posts on this list to get
as much GOOD information as possible so I can become a top of the line
shooter. And while your information may be "good" in its own right,
Chet, I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about. Maybe one
day I will get a grasp of some of it, but I am a pretty smart guy, and
barring going back to school for a PhD., I might sadly never learn what
your last e-mail was all about.
This was just my 2 cents... Again, I am glad I remained on this list,
the longer I stick with it, the more I learn. Thanks everyone!

Vince Joaquin

********************************************************************

Vince wrote,
I want to be a good shooter, not a good psychotherapist. I want to just be
able to hit the 10 ring most of the time... not necessarily know why I was
able to hit it, just know that I *can* hit it.

///The basic shooter of the past currently begins his or her shooting
technique by developing their total shooting effort from the conscious
mental entity. Yet, the correct location to commence the shooting technique
is from the unconscious mental entity. It is here you learn to be a good
shooting athlete and not from the conscious level or subconscious level of
the mental entity. The conscious and subconscious is not connected to the
neuromuscular system, which is the domain of the cortical mass. When an
athlete uses the conscious and subconscious, the only results are randomized
results. The shooting athlete who removes the errors in their technique will
win the gold. How does the shooting athlete remove errors? By fully=20
understanding the working elements of the mind and how they may hinder or
assist the shooting athlete in winning their goal. By fully understanding the
minds functioning you learn how the mind works and can use its functioning to
assist you instead for hindering you as happens in the conscious mental
level. ///

Granted, I do believe in relaxing my consciousness level in preparing to
shoot so my heart beat slows, my muscles relax, etc. but once I am on the
firing line it is just my eyes (with glasses) my sights and my
finger to pull the trigger and that is it. I don't think about anything
else during live firing, otherwise I would be too distracted.

///You don't have to think of any other thing but your perfect bull's-eye
results and goal with the supporting mental technique for accomplishing the
Perfect one-shot-match which results in the perfect bull's-eye. Once your
mind has analyzed the effort and placed it into permanent memory, it becomes
an automatic function and you will not have to think about it. The
unconscious mental entity will do that for you without your knowledge. In
all cases the mind commits to a given function or technique and completes it
in the first =BE of a second of mental effort. The same occurs in the Golf
swing. ///

I am a scratch golfer as well, and I see far too many people thinking
about 20 different things at one time while they are standing over the
ball about to hit it and then hit a bad shot anyway because they are
trying to do too many things at once.

///Yes you're correct as I have many times observed the same thing in golf,
swimming, shooting in rifle-shotgun-and pistol. This abuse of mental
ability is what causes so many errors in technique for any athlete. They
have failed to learn the correct mental functions and used these functions
to their advantage during the athlete activity. In my book I developed a
system to remove this functional error. Two mental entities exist in which
one is passive and the other is active. The passive or conscious mental
entity takes on the duties of virtual coach and does nothing but monitor the
ongoing shooting technique. Any noted errors in technique the Dominant
mental entity (conscious) and the command to break the circuit is issued and
the athlete must stop an start over again from the get go. In this way the
conscious mental entity will not be permitted to generate spontaneous
thought which will disrupt the over all mental shooting technique. As
spontaneous thought is also thoughts of fear or doubt, such negative
thoughts are eliminated from the mental system before they are disrupting to
the overall mental functioning. Several psychologists have commented
favorably on this simple technique. ///

Then they watch me hit and gaze at the ball as it rockets 100 yards or
sometimes more past theirs and they always ask, "How did you do that?!?"
I always tell them the same thing, "I think about 2 or 3 things setting
up for the shot <positioning body for shooting>, and once I am ready
over the ball <ready to fire>, I just think of my target and following
through to it and let my body and the club do the rest." <let the sights
rest on the target and squeeze the trigger.>

///Very good work. You have cleared your mind of all spontaneous negative
thought and concentrated upon the wing technique to follow through. But one
important fact was ignored and that is from the top of the swing to the ball
impact, the =BE of a second mental timing sequence occurred and you thought or
held as the swing goal being a location at which the ball will impact. Your
swing and power is gauged and implemented accordingly by the unconscious
mental entity. Swing speed and wrist release with balance adjustment was
the authority of the unconscious mental entity to place the ball or bullet
exactly on the spot predetermined you wanted to achieve. You see I also am
a past Golf Professional and I taught this same technique for many years.///

Since I have been golf professional and instructor for the past several
years I do feel qualified to make this analogy from golf to shooting in case
anyone was wondering.
I am paying a lot more attention to everyone's posts on this list to get as
much GOOD information as possible so I can become a top of the line shooter.
And while your information may be "good" in its own right, Chet, I haven't
the foggiest idea what you are talking about. Maybe one day I will get a
grasp of some of it, but I am a pretty smart guy, and barring going back to
school for a PhD., I might sadly never learn what your last e-mail was all
about.

/// Vince, any coach that will not take the time to learn the psychology and
physiology is not really coaching or instructing but only herding a bunch of
athletes around the different competitions. The shooter or golfer must
learn how to make the human body and its mental entities work for that
athlete and not against. ///

Chet Skinner, Coach

********************************************************************

Oh boy , this is getting good!
Hi Vince, and all.As long as You have a teacher You'll learn something and as the teacher has a pupil he'll learn something, too!
I got in to this list by chance, "hijacked" by M. Ray.He got me on a "technical note".
I'm into rifleshooting, bigtime, and all I can get my mind into regarding this topic helps me in my life.Golfers or rifleshooters have it the same way, the only major difference is the money.I spend a lot on ammo and travel, and when I had time for golf I spent some money on that (hcp15) as well.
Training sessions with either take several hours and at least I go about it in a "technical way". Before You got that perfect swing I bet You had to spend hours on the driving range.I do that on the shooting range, about 1000 hours a year.I've done that for about 10 years plus, now.
Is it still fun?Of course,it's my life we're talking about.I enjoy everything that is done to make my day.This list helps me going where I want.The amount can be discussed,but as I said, I'm still the pupil and I am open to new ideas.
Please, open up,write more about the ways You go about Your mindgames when playing golf.The synergy? should be here for us.Golf is good for both the mental and physical part used in rifleshooting,my opinion.=20
I think of the golfswing,take the swing and see the result.The more I practice,set my mind to it, the more I just "do" the swing,subconcious and after a long time(years) I'll do it automatically.I do it the same way with shooting; figureing a way to do things,then I do it because I have trained specificially on this and when I need it in a competition, I (hopefully) do it automatically.
To get You started,Vince, I would like to see You drive the ball 350 yards,all day,and then I would probably say, why do You do it?
To all of you, keep up the writing, it's my life you are seasoning.
=D8yvind
from
Stavanger ,Norway

[Editor - And I'm quite glad I did "hijack" him! His replies to my questions were very knowledgeable and technical (something I like). Little did I know he is a current world record holder in 300m.]

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Chet,
Thank you for your reply, this time it made a lot more sense (in my eyes
anyway). I appreciate the time everyone takes in offering advice, and
in my case, explaining it once or twice so I can really grasp it. Like
I said, I wanted to know what you were saying and know someday it might
help make me a better shooter and possibly golfer as well. Thanks,
Chet, for the insight.

=D8yvind from Stavanger, Norway. Writes:
> To get You started, Vince, I would like to see You drive the ball 350
yards, all day, and then I would probably say, why do You do it?

Well =D8yvind, regrettably I don't drive the ball 350 yards every time.
Nor do I hit it straight down the middle of the fairway or right next to
the pin every time either, but a good percentage of the time I do, and
really that is all one needs to do in golf. Unlike shooting, where
winning you need to be perfect about every time in the Olympics or
International competitions.
Why would *I* do it, you ask. Well, why does Tiger Woods do it even=20
though he can do exactly what you propose? He does it because it is=20
fun, it is competitive, and he likes WINNING. Just because he wins a
lot and can outdrive everyone else on the PGA Tour day in and day out
doesn't make it any less fun for him, nor would it me.
And I think there is one other thing I should note, I got into golf as a
bet in my junior year in high school that I couldn't make the golf team
that fall in my senior year. I had never really hit a golf ball at all
before that except for when my golfing grandfather came into town and
wanted to take me to the driving range with him when I was younger.=20
Within 6 months of the bet, I was almost a scratch golfer and really
don't practice all that much to keep my skills. I live in a cold winter
climate (Wisconsin, USA) and don't practice at all for a good 4 months
due to snow, yet in the spring I pick up my clubs and can still go out
and shoot close to par. I can't explain it. Acquired talent I=20 guess?
This really relates to my shooting, which I began in 7th grade when I
was 12 years old. My coach wouldn't let any new shooters touch a rifle
for at least 2 weeks until we learned SAFETY and TECHNIQUES of shooting.
After two weeks we were gradually worked into live firing. The first
time I actually was allowed to fire a 10-shot target I stunned not only
myself, but my coach as well. I fired a 73/100 in the prone position my
first go at it.
Granted, after that I was hooked, and I practiced each weekday after
school with the shooting team's practice squad for a few hours. By the
time I was in 9th grade I had qualified for the varsity shooting team
and was one of the better shooters (at the time "sub-junior" category)
in the state and region. By the end of 9th grade I was actually able to
match other varsity team shooters shot for shot, me in the standing=20
position, them in the prone position, which is something my father
actually did when he was on the SAME shooting team with the SAME rifle
coach. (Amazing, I know, the coach hung in there for a lot of years!!!)
Evidently, the coach was doing something right if he could make very
good shooters in two generations. But my point is, I feel that no
matter how much you practice, you need some "natural" talent to be able
to compete at a high level in any sport.
I was never taught "synergy" or "subconscious" in either golf or
shooting. But somehow without me knowing it, they worked their way into
my mind. I know when a golfer is really playing well in a tournament on
Tour, the broadcasters sometimes refer to that player as "unconscious",
like his body is doing all the work that it has been trained to do
without the interference of his mind. And I tend to agree with that.
There comes a point when golfers/shooters can just set themselves up to
their target and then let the "subconscious" mind take over thereby
negating any adverse mental thoughts and only focusing on the task at
hand. It is pure brilliance, in my mind, if a person is able to achieve
this mental equilibrium. I haven't yet, but maybe one day I will.
Thanks for the replies, Chet and =D8yvind, and keep hitting 10's.

Vince Joaquin

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Thank you very much Vince. Wish you would stop using the word Subconscious as it has little or nothing to do with technique. However, the Unconscious does have a major impact upon the mental and physical functioning. Tiger uses a pure mental golfing technique that his father taught him. Many think the unconscious does nothing but, in fact it is operating 24 hours a day and is the reason for the flashes of automatic functioning. Commonly it is the unconscious that is doing the work and the subconscious that get the acknowledgements although not deserved.
The mental technique is the worker in all cases except when the athlete cannot get out of the conscious mode. In every mental case what you think is what you will get. That includes club angle at impact. If you have any fear that the ball will go left or right that is the way it will go. This is because during the down swing the club head will realign to accomplish that slice or what every you had in your mind at the time.
Let us consider shooting for a moment. The physical or conscious shooter will experience angular and parallel errors in alignment for physical sight alignment and sighting functions but when the shooter uses the mental technique this goes away and the two errors are eliminated during the technique.
During the mental sighting technique the two errors in sighting do not occur or do not exist and the athlete that eliminated all the personal errors in technique will win the gold..or the hole in one as the case may be....!
Chet Skinner, Coach

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While its been interesting reading the posts the past few days, I think my
original question got lost in the ether...
Is there a preference in contacts vs. glasses? If so, why? That's all,
simple really.
I understand the mental aspects of recent discussion, however that's not
what I'd asked. At some point, light has to physically pass through the
sights, through the lenses of some optics (either the eye or the eye aided
with external optics), and onto the retina before going off to the brain for
processing. This is the part I'm concerned with, right now.
Also, before anyone says "Heck, you don't even need glasses. I can shoot
without them". While its true that many could possibly get by without them,
others couldn't even find their gear without some optical help (much less
point the rifle in the right direction or hit the target). I'm not
interested in shooting at fuzzy targets. The rules allow optics to help me
see, the DMV says I have to wear them to drive, I have to use them to read,
so I'm going to use them. I'm interested in getting the best possible sight
picture into my eyeball, so the brain and mental processes can take over.
I also don't want to get into a "The bull is 'not really' black because is
absorbs light, hence it actually consists of all colors" type discussion.
Simple question, relatively simple answers.
Thanks,
Mark

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Mark,
In response to your question... I shoot with glasses and, like you,=20
would probably not be able to hit the side of a barn without them, even
if I was inside the barn with the doors closed! However, I never tried
shooting with contacts because I have a pretty severe astigmatism and
the contacts that us folk with astigmatisms require have special
miniature "weights" to keep them in the correct position on the eye.
For me, those "weights" kept spinning, so every time I would blink I
would lose focus. So glasses it is for me. Like you said, I probably
could shoot without them, but shoot what I have no idea.
If your contacts stay in focus, I would imagine that they might give you
a minimal advantage over glasses in that 1. They don't fog up (although
I use anti-fog sticks to prevent that with my glasses), 2. They are=20
right on your eye and maximize the corrections in your prescription, and
3. They won't slide down your nose from sweat or get knocked askew by
the rifle on your 79th shot in the 3x40 causing you to miss the target
all together and become the laughing stock of the competition (just=20
joking). hehe
Hope this helps!
Vince Joaquin

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It's my understanding you don't get a choice, you should be wearing glasses
anyway for safety reasons. Contacts provide no safety advantage and might
even trap dirt such as flakes of unburned powder. So if the choice is
glasses or both, it would seem more comfortable to wear just the glasses.
The problem with prescription glasses is in getting things adjusted so you
can see through the optical centers. This is much less important for plain
safety glasses. I think that especially in prone, looking through the center
of normal glasses is nowhere near possible, so you will need prescription
lenses installed in a special adjustable shooting frame; there are at least
3 companies making these but they are not cheap. As long as you don't need
special astigmatism correction, you can easily order the amount of focus
correction you need at the same time you buy the frames.
Since you are not looking straight ahead, you eyeball might warp slightly
and cause the contacts to pop loose or otherwise mess up your shot. But I
use plain lenses and no contacts, so I don't know what problems actually
happen with them.
- Benjamin

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From what I have read about glasses versus contacts is that the contacts
move around the eye while shooting giving you a different view with a shift
in impact point from shot to shot.
Regards,
Gerald.

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Simple non-technical recommendation: At Bisley and shoots around the
U.K., I have met multiple people who avoid contacts like the plague,
due to their ability to trap debris (sand, residue etc). Once the
debris is in place, it can cause BAD irritation and potentially
scratch the surface of the eye.

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On the other hand, I know two people who have Commonwealth Games
medals and have represented GBR at European and World Championships=20
who shoot in contacts.
I tried them, and the sight picture was better than glasses for me,=20
and not having glasses battering off the rearsight was wonderful.
Unfortunately I have dry eyes and suffer from hay fever and found
that the lenses became a liability in dry and/or dusty conditions.
Donald

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I bought the 'Champion World-2' frames from Stewards of Bisley. If you're in
the UK I can thouroughly recommend their service. I can dig out the address
and phone number if anyones needs it.
theres a FAQ http://www.precision-sports.com/qchamp.htm
the Champion shooting frames come in 3 flavours, World (basic)
World-2(middle) and Olympic(Luxury) ... I'd reccomend the World-2 as its only
slightly more expensive than the basic, but you do get the soft nose peice
and its adjustable for height, which is worth having, the Olympic has loads
of adjustments, but when you've set them once, you are unlikely ever to move
them, so save your money. ( it might be useful for 3P i guess, but I just do
prone)
The impotant point is they allow you to pivot and twist the lens so it is at
90 degrees to the sight, which you can't do with normal glasses.
Before paying out the money, try this. Does your sight have (or can you
borrow) a rubber eye cup? .. well .. why not pop a lens out of your normal
glasses (yes, sure the prescription may not be the same ...) and attach it
with Blu-Tak or tape to the eye cup and try it for a couple of cards ... I
have an iris with so I took a lens out of my normal glasses and got my wife
to take it in and out of position whilst I sighted on a target. The=20
difference was significant and I ordered the frames the very next day.
I gained around 1.5 points too ;)
--
Robin Szemeti

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I know a couple of people who shoot at international level, who use=20
contact lenses. If I didn't have astigmatism, I'd be severely tempted
too.......
I used to wear gas-permeable (fairly rigid, hard lenses) and shot
smallbore happily with them. After an embarrassing incident during
a service rifle match (went rapidly into a kneeling position, rubber
eyecup on optic sight hit my eyebrow, lens popped out) at the
Scottish championships, I switched from the smaller iris-covering
lenses to larger soft lenses. Greater comfort was another factor.
Since moving to soft lenses ten years ago, I have had far less problems
with grit in my eyes (particularly relevant in service rifle, because of
the increased muzzle blast and its ability to kick up sand and dirt,
and also because the ranges concerned are by the seaside and are
mostly sand......)
I then found (I presume because of the increased water content
of the lens) that I had problems using the softer lenses when
shooting smallbore, in terms of optical quality. Other people
are perfectly happy with soft lenses, however. Maybe my technique
was at fault at the time I tried, in that I was staring for too long.
In terms of optical quality, glasses will give you a better
picture; they can be more accurately and consistently made to fit
your prescription.
However, (as I keep pointing out to Chet) vision in competition
is not just about a perfect sight picture; it's also about being
aware of your surroundings, specifically about watching what the
wind is doing. If your glasses are aligned properly, you may not
have any corrected vision off-axis without moving your head;
not good if you want to look further up the range to see if a
lull in the wind is coming. Contact lenses are an advantage in
this situation. My partial solution is to use 42mm pistol lenses
in my shooting glasses rather than the 21mm rifle lens holders
(I use a Champion frame).
As ever, your mileage may vary......

Martin Sinclair

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Hi Mark, The answer to your question is if you wear contacts wear glasses to protect them as sand and dust or used powder from the range will cause scratches on the eye balls and cause major problems for you not to mention the pain. Several of my athletes did wear contacts and never again. In the case of a blowback the pressure will hit the contacts and then go into the eye lids and around the eye ball to the inner section of the eye. Such happening no one needs.
Chet

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Mark, you asked about shooting with contacts. They are the only real
alternative to getting the fully adjustable shooting glasses for rifle
shooting. With regular everyday glasses you're not looking through the
optical center of the lens when in position, so the image is distorted
in many ways. Down side of contacts is dryness occasionally, and
becoming aware of my right sighting eye by the end of a match. If you
shoot high power, dust can be an issue too.
With that said, I'm considering getting a pair of the fully adjustable
frames.
Best,
Brian

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I have a question concerning the contact of the buttplate in the shoulder
when shooting prone. I find that when I am in position, the contact between
the top of the buttplate and my shoulder seems good, but the bottom does not
fully contact the shoulder. As a result, the rifle is able to be rotated in
the shoulder if I get someone to apply sideways pressure to it.
I am wondering if this could be contributing to some of my difficulties in
shooting prone. Am I correct in assuming that the contact between the
shoulder and buttplate should be such that the rifle is incapable of this
movement? Adjusting the vertical position of the buttplate doesn't seem to
have much influence. I am presently using a relatively straight Anschutz
buttplate. Would an alternate design (i.e. a buttplate having a more
substantial curve) or a hook buttplate help? Alternatively, is a change in
position warranted?
Thanks in advance for any advice. Despite some of the previous comments
that have surfaced, I've found this list to be a worthwhile read, even for
those of us still near the base of the learning curve.
Best Regards,
Steve

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Steven,
I currently shoot prone & 3-P with a Marlin 2000L
whick has a very straight butplate. I don't seem to
have any problems with contact in the shoulder, but I
might have a slightly different position that you. I
have the butplate a low as it can go. To eliminate
the movement of the rifle, try to ensure that your
sling is a tight as you can stand it, but not to cause
pain.
I hope that this helps.
Continued success,
Jim Bongiovanni

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Hi!
Try this!
Buttplate(and hook) need as much as possible "surfacecontact" with Your body.Meaning, drape the butt and hook around the place You want it.I put the butt and hook on top of my shoulder while I'm sitting.Then open up everything that can be opened to make me fit it "onto" my body.Put the right arm in the same position as when You shoot prone, and try to make the butt/hook stand straight up.Afterwards You can put it on the rifle and adjust it for height.And, maybe sideways to get the eye to fit the sighting line.!Take it from there.As much surface into the buttplate as possible!The hook is used to get the rifle in the posistion where it is held in the posistion I want it, without any sideways movements when recoiling.It doesn't interfer with the movements of the recoil direction.
=D8yvind

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>Mike,
>
>You can post this in the newsletter if you want, it may
>help other from making the same mistake. My coaching partner and I bought
>our rifles
>at the same time, I bought a Anschutz 1913 and he bought a Walter KK2000
>with a
>aluminum stock. About a month later while shooting a prone practice, a
>crack was heard
>and a chuck of rail broke out of the bottom of the Walther. We contact the
>vendor who
>sold us our rifles about replacing this "defective" stock with no success.
>The vendor did send
>a Anschutz 1913 handstop at no charge. The 1913 handstop was longer and
>would bridge over the
>broken area. Time goes on, and as we traveled to different matches we would
>hear other
>stories about broken rails with the new aluminum stocks. (We heard of at
>least six other
>customer who had the same problem.) One of the things that bugged us was
>that others had
>their stock replaced with no problems. We send e-mails to Walther and
>talked to the vendor
>with no success. Finally when we were at the factory I talked to Sven
>Martini about the
>problem. He seemed surprised that we had trouble getting the problem fixed.
>When we
>returned we took digital photos of the broken area and send them to Sven at
>Walther.
>Sven agreed to replace the stock minus all of the hardware and sent out the
>new stock.
>However the interesting part follows, they have seen this problem before,
>and it is NOT due
>to a defective stock. His first question was "Did you change handstop?"
>The answer was
>Yes, the handstop that Walther sent was small and my partner liked his old
>Anschutz 1918
>handstop so he swapped. The problem is when you tighten the screw on the
>old handstop
>was to long and it bottomed out against the inside of the rail. This forces
>the hand stop away
>from the stock and breaks out the top edges of the rail.
>
>I have left the names out to protect the innocent and the guilty! Live and
>learn, hopefully some can learn from others mistakes...
>
>This is the letter that was sent to Walther:
>Dear Sir:
>
>About 3 1/2 years ago I purchased a KK200 from xxxxxxxxxx, at
>the National Smallbore Competition at Camp Perry. In less than 7 months a
>3/4 inch piece of the rail broke out. I contacted xxxxxxxxxx from
>xxxxxxxxxxx with the problem and he said the only thing he could do
>was for me to purchase a new stock at the cost of $900 dollars. When I told
>him the value of my rifle had been severely diminished his only=20
>recommendation was for me to purchase a Anshutz hand stop because it had a
>longer bearing surface so I could continue to shoot the Walther. He also
>stated that he had no knowledge of any problems with the rail channel and
>nothing could be done.
>
>The UIT letter has many reports of the rails breaking on the KK200 and many
>of the reports are saying the Walther company is standing behind their
>product and correcting the problem. My rifle is a great performer and it
>always gets attention when ever I go to competitions. I own many Walther
>firearms, GSP, GSPC and the OSP and these firearms have performed
>flawlessly.
>
>
>This is Walther response:
>Sometime we have this problem, when the shooter use a handstop with a to
>deep fixing screw. So does the handstop climing not only in the rail, the
>screw goes deeper and make pressure up to the hand. So the rail break out.
>In your case we would send you a chassi(frame). You assamble it and send us
>the damaged one bac.You havent to pay for this service.
>Give me your adress, please.
>Best Regards
>Sven Martini
>Service
>
>
>Curt D. Ingersoll

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Just to let you know this is not limited only to Walther. Had the same
thing happen to an Anschutz 2313 Aluminum stock. Neal Johnsons in Colorado
springs would not warranty it. I had them mill out the bottom of the stock
and inlet a new extruded rail insert. I did however have to pay for the
work.
Ed Knutson
Glendale, California, USA

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Hi All,
I have been shooting with the walther KK200PM for a couple of years now, the
rifle I have has an extra sheath (as all PMs do I think) over the old
handstop rail. It has never posed any problems, I think these can be bought
seperatley if you want to add them to the KK200 sport. However I did crack
the but plate buy tightening the screws to tight ! So just watch out for
that. One shooter I know has had problems with the pistol grip snapping off
as well. Walther were very quick to replace the defective product and I have
nothing but praise for their customer service. Anyone who is looking for a
second hand model, I would recomend getting one of the earliest stoks as
these were machined and not cast and so should not pose any of these
problems. They are unfortunatley hard to come by.
Regards
Rob Barclay

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I have for sale a used 2002ca alu. Its right handed and comes with a load of stuff:
3 air cylinders
2 extra barrel weights
MEC tube

I can count the times I have shot this gun on both hands. I must have less
than 2000 rounds through it. It is mint condition, no scraches, dinks or
dents.
I would like $1100.00 but I'm looking for a quick sell.

Thanks
-Ross Miller
centershotkid@hotmail.com

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End of UIT Mailing List #13

Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm --=====================_-566410776==_.ALT--