From topshot@indy.net Wed Dec 26 01:09:21 2001 Return-path: Envelope-to: dennehym@localhost Delivery-date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 01:09:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] ident=dennehym) by sparks.cs.tcd.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 16J2ZH-00082Y-00 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 01:09:15 +0000 Received: from mail.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.32.56] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.9.0) for dennehym@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 26 Dec 2001 01:09:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sire.mail.pas.earthlink.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.cs.tcd.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA28073 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 01:08:49 GMT Received: from sdn-ar-001inthaup248.dialsprint.net ([158.252.109.10] helo=raym-pc-1.indy.net) by sire with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16J2AZ-0005c3-00; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:43:43 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20011225192152.02fe8040@pop.indy.net> X-Sender: topshot@pop.indy.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:44:13 -0500 To: topshot@indy.net From: Michael Ray Subject: UIT Mailing List Vol. 6 - #10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-2090193549==_.ALT" X-UIDL: 5T9!!&-T"!LQ*"!cpH"! Status: RO Content-Length: 55875 Lines: 1248 --=====================_-2090193549==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is the second part of the "holiday issue". Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. To subscribe to the "real-time" version of the list send an email to uit_mailing_list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In this issue: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! Re: This list is too technical! / need kneeling position help Re: need kneeling position help Re: need kneeling position help Re: need kneeling position help Re: need kneeling position help Re: need kneeling position help Re: need kneeling position help General comment (was This list is too technical!) ******************************************************************** Alright, where do I begin... Perhaps you folks don't realize something here. Most shooters (myself included) can't afford all of the things that are discussed on this mailing list. I signed up on this list hopefully to learn something about the precision shooting sport around the world. So far all I have learned is how to decrease 10 shot group sizes by .5mm or so. To be completely blunt with all of you, I used to be on a High School shooting team and didn't have access to all the fancy stuff you guys use. 4 of the guys on my team had brand new (at the time) Anschutz 1913 Supermatch rifles, and me, I used a cut-down Remington 40X because I was too small to hold an Anschutz in standing for more than 5 minutes. I used fairly inexpensive ammo (all different kinds, whatever the school had available - PMC, Remington, etc.) and could still shoot the pants off of half the other shooters I competed against with their Anschutz's and Feinwerkbau's and Eley ammo. So what is the enormous deal here? I know everything now is so geared towards ultra-accuracy that no one stops to think that all everything really comes down to is the shooter taking one shot at a time. All I hear about is this rifle and that rifle or this ammo or that reamer. What ever happened to mastering the SPORT instead of mastering ways to make the sport far too easy? I can think back to a time when I was in 9th grade (1989) and I laid down in prone with my trusty 40X and a 100-pack yellow plastic box of Remington ammo and proceeded to fire 100 dead-center or darn-near-dead-center bullseye's in a row. Now you tell me, what more can a person ask for? (Besides 100 dead center bullseye's standing. Hehe) (Side note: I did miss the 101st, however, due to the sudden onset of a sneezing fit as I was in the middle of squeezing off the shot!) My point to all of this, I think, is as follows: I would love to read about new events in the shooting world and achievements and maybe new product info would be great! But I must say, if I have to read about someone reaming out their gun one more time I could puke. That stuff should really be saved for the message boards, and not general, circulative e-mail. I am a golf professional now, and I play golf more than I shoot. But the same rule applies to golf as it does shooting - if you can't use a set of clubs that is 30 years old and score well, you aren't a very good golfer. Shooting goes right along with that. Sure, I could have hit 100 in a row with an Anschutz, but isn't it more fun to know that you don't NEED that gun to do it? I know it is for me! I just thought I would toss in my 2 cents. Thanks! Vince Joaquin ******************************************************************** Here, here!! I'm with Vince on this one. He is right. Most people that shoot cannot afford to fly to England to test new batches of ammo, or spend thousands of dollars (US) on the latest and greatest new barrel or stock. I also believe that most shooters do not have convienent access to "competition quality" gunsmiths. Most of us, myself included, like to shoot at local matches or leagues for fun. Is that such a foriegn concept? Have most of you forgotten that? It seems to me that many of the people on this site take their shooting very seriously, and that's fine. I would like to go the the US National Championships and the Olympics some day myself, but right now I can't, so I work on my form and my shooting to improve my scores. One day I'll "trade up" to an Anschutz so I can tryout for the US Olympic Team, but right now I can't so I do the best that I can. I guess what I'm trying to say, in a round about sort of way, is don't forget about us that shoot for fun, and try to remember back to when you thought shooting was fun! Continued success, Jim Bongiovanni ******************************************************************** I write to support the comments made by Vince Joaquin and numerous others regarding the lack of value to real shooters of this mailing list. I refer to REAL shooters rather than "Technophiles" and "Barrow Pushers" that dominate postings. The Technophiles are those who argue endlessly the technical merits in terms of nanospiffs (made up word) of one product over another. The Barrow Pushers are those who use the forum as a vehicle to pursue their own business interests (no names here). I would point out that competitive shooting has many facets other than the technical (ie equipment) and rather there should be equal emphasis placed on physical technique, fitness training regimes, mental approach, administration, training methods, match preparation, etc. etc. etc. The lack of this material supports the statement within my title. I invite you to vote with unsubscribe emails if you agree, then the organisers may bring more relevance to those sportsman who seek to improve themselves and are willing to share information to do it. Mark Way ******************************************************************** >I write to support the comments made by Vince Joaquin and numerous others >regarding the lack of value to real shooters of this mailing list. In the 6+ years I've been doing this list, I've received nothing but compliments except from those who don't care for certain members. You are welcome to "vote with unsubscribe emails" if you wish, but just what are you going to accomplish by that? It seems absurd that I should have to remind you that this list survives solely for its members, just like any other mailing list. You get out what you put in. Thus, if you wish to receive "value", I'd recommend you start asking the questions YOU deem important rather than complaining about the questions others deem important. The Editor ******************************************************************** Hi Mark, As with all things on the "information highway" read this append with a "grain of salt" and don't believe all you read... In some ways I agree with you but I don't think that leaving the list solves anything. To me that is akin to stuffing one's head back in the sand. You are correct in that some of the discussions are between high-performance shooters & coaches and much of it is unintelligible BUT by sifting through it and applying some common-sense you can gather ideas that will help you at whatever level you shoot at. For example, there has been a discussion about fancy ammo testing setups and xx.x mm wide groups with this or that type of ammo. But maybe what you can take away is that different ammo and different batches of the same ammo can affect your group size. I am sure that just trying shooting groups with the different brands/lots available to you locally may show that your rifle has a preference for one or another. The most expensive ammo does not always shoot the best. If you are not confident in shooting test groups from your shoulder then you could use sandbags or whatever to provide a stable and repeatable rest. You don't need the latest and newest equipment to shoot well. I managed to do very well with a real old Anschutz Model 54 SuperMatch Free Rifle that's almost as old as me and has a somewhat mushy trigger and no ejector. I purchased this rifle nth hand for very little and used it to learn to shoot free rifle. Once I was pushing my scores over 1100 _then_ I spent some big bucks on a new rifle. The new fancy rifle, oddly enough, does not shoot tens all by itself but it does make it a bit easier not to have to flick each spent casing out :-) Getting better at shooting is a whole heap of nano-spifs. That is, I can't say "today I will shoot better standing" but I might say "today I will keep my feet in the right place while standing" and because of that shoot just a small (nano ?) amount better. So just be cool, let the technophiles techno, and the barrow pushers barrow and just apply a common-sense filter to it all. BTW, I think that the wax or hard coating on .22lr bullets is simply a lubricant to prevent leading of the barrel and that you won't pick up much lead from handling metallic lead (bullets) it's the vaporized lead from the target end of the range and the rifle exhaust gas (lead sty. in the primers) that you should worry about. Shoot Ten's Mike ******************************************************************** Personally, I enjoy seeing esoteric mailings that may or may not be completely irrelevant to me, because it's interesting, and you don't often get a chance to listen to these enthusiasts. Your mileage may vary....if you want answers relevant to your interests, then start asking the right questions. I tend to be reactive on this list rather than proactive. Someone asks a question; several highly able shooters may reply (Wayne Sorenson, for instance); I listen, I learn. Where I am able to provide some input, and possibly some help, I reply. Now, if someone asks a question about ammunition selection (e.g. "how good is Tenex EPS"), I can offer my experiences of firing differing batches on the test range for a reasonably fact-based reply ("quite good, and here are the numbers to prove it"). If someone asks "What can you tell me about System Gemini stocks", I can only offer my own experiences - after all, a new stock is a serious amount of cash (it certainly was to me - I managed to walk up to Rajmond Debevec at ISAS 1997 to ask his opinions on what he though about bedding into aluminium instead of wood, and he took the time to give me a serious answer) As for "technophile", I got into the prone final of the 1st Commonwealth Shooting Federation championships in Delhi, 1995, using my first rifle (a fifteen-year-old, second-hand, unmodified Anschutz 1413) which I had purchased for the princely sum of 250GBP (about $350 USD) from someone who was giving up the sport, and wanted to pass on his kit to someone who was enthusiastic (I had just finished being a student, and wasn't rich). The only modification I had made was taping chamois leather to the cheekpiece to stop sweat making the wood slippery. So, a big thankyou to Al Murchison, because his 1413 barrel and action went to a Commonwealth Games and three Commonwealth Championships, and only got switched to being my backup rifle this summer because I found a better batch of ammo for my existing backup barrel. So yes, I may be able to discuss the merits of ammunition selection, but then I also enjoy doing local leagues with fellow club members (and boy, do I occasionally get a humility lesson from the older and wiser) Martin Sinclair ******************************************************************** I'm with Martin on this one. The "organisers" don't determine what's on this list, that's down to those who read and contribute - what Michael does is provide the means for the discussion to take place, and we should thank him rather than complain. If you want to see other aspects discussed then start the discussion - it's as simple as that. Perhaps look at the archive though, and you will see that tuning barrels and ammunition selection are only one of many topics raised here, and beware some of the more bizarre responses you will get (not mentioning any names)... On a really picky note, perhaps our intolerant friends would like to consider that there are some shooters with internet access outside the US, and for some us a trip to the Eley factory to test ammunition means getting in the car. We know that shooters from many countries come to Birmingham to test Eley ammunition, so why shouldn't we pass on what we've learned to someone contemplating that level of committement to their sport? Donald McIntosh ******************************************************************** I totally disagree with Mr. Mark Way. i'm a portuguese shooter and i'm in this mailing list within 1 year. I'm at high level National competition and I learn many things during this year, such as ammunition, shooting clothing, mental shooting, information about internet sites of shooting, etc.... So, it's not fare Mr. Mark Way try to pursuade people to subscribe or unsubscribe this mailing list. Who don't want to receive this mails anymore just unsubscribe and that's it..... best regards Michael and .."the life must go on.." Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year for all... Rui Alves Portugal ******************************************************************** I hope that I didn't sound ungrateful in my last message. I am new to the sport, and much of the techno stuff I find a little more that confusing at times. Right now my main goal is to hit all of the targets in kneeling and standing. Not well, just hit them. I'll work on well later. Any tips for kneeling? I can't seem to hold the rifle steady (my last score was a 45/100. Ouch!) I enjoy hearing about the sport for our international friends. I find it quite interesting to see the sport from the perspective from people in Britian, India, Portugal, etc. Maybe I'll even meet some of them at future (very distant future) World Cup Matches or the Olympics. Keep up the good work, God bless, and Happy Holiday! Continued success, Jim Bongiovanni ******************************************************************** Hi Jim, I find that most people's problems getting going in kneeling and standing are that they are both trying too hard and expecting the rifle to be as steady as in prone. Keeping in mind that I am not a coach nor a shooter at the level of Wayne S. (yet :-) but what has helped me in kneeling and standing is to a) Spend the time to make sure that your position is centered on the target. This should help reduce the side to side wobble that you may be seeing. b) Use a large front sight insert, maybe 4.0, 4.2, whatever. This way you won't be over-reacting when the bull moves off center and trying to correct too abruptly. Then with the large insert don't worry too much if the bull is not perfectly stead and centered to start with, just execute good shots. There is much more but I think if you just work on one little thing at a time it will eventually all come together and before you know it you will be one of the techophiles trying to improve that slight little bit that will gain you one more point over 600 :-) Shoot Tens ! Mike ******************************************************************** I agree with the above (I've had a frustrating time kneeling recently, and it has absorbed nearly 50% of my training effort, more at times) and would add that it's worthwhile making sure that your lower body is relaxed. This is right-hand-biased, so you may have to reverse parts of the following... When you're standing, it's obvious when you're reasonably well balanced, because you don't fall over. When you're kneeling, you're essentially a tripod and it's easier to get yourself into a position where you're holding yourself in place with musclepower [a bad thing]. It's also easy to use musclepower to shift aim onto the target, rather than reorienting the whole position [similarly, a bad thing]. So, try feeling to make sure that your left leg sits in position, with the shin vertical (in the left / right direction; you may end up slanting your shin front / back) with no effort at the pelvis from the muscles that sit around your hip. Keep the area around your hips / lower stomach clear so that the major arteries aren't compressed by anything. (my trousers are undone at the waist when kneeling, and folded back so that they don't come between left lower abdomen and left upper thigh. My jacket is only fastened for the top half of the buttons) Try keeping your centre of gravity back towards your kneeling roll rather than forwards toward the left knee; the knee's got enough weight on it already with the rifle. Also, try keeping your centre of gravity left, so that it's over a line between your left foot and the kneeling roll. Play around with where you put your centre of gravity, until you find something that works; this will take some time, but it makes a big difference to your stability. You should end up almost totally relaxed. There's no substitute for experimentation and training on this one, I'm afraid :-( Finally, try shooting prone with 3.7 or 3.8 foresight for ISSF (UIT) targets, and see if it makes a difference to your scores. I found 3.7 about right for prone, and started out at 4.2 for standing/kneeling. I move up to 3.8 prone if feeling nervous :-) :-) I'm surprised that you use a 3.2 foresight (is the aiming mark on an A-17 the same apparent size as on an A-36?) as I just can't work that small...... Hopefully, the above tips will give you something to try out the next time you shoot. Have fun! Martin Sinclair ******************************************************************** James Bongiovanni wrote: > > Martin, > I'll give your suggestions a try. It couldn't hurt! > As for the size of the aiming marks on the 50ft > targets, the A-17 (American) is 1.483" in diameter and > the A-36 (UIT) is 1.393" in diameter. Yes, the 3.2 is > a little tight on both. I was told earlier that the > white around the target should be about the dame > thickness as the ring in the front aperture. DO you > agree? Not really; after all, if you had a really thin foresight element, by that measure you would end up with a really small front aperture. Try 3.7 for the A-36, try a few groups, and play around with what works for you. Two shooters may prefer two totally different sight pictures. I'd agree with the advice that says "have a look at Pullum and Hahnenkrat", the new book looks quite good. Another book that is full of good advice is Ralf Horneber's. That is, how to build a position, how to train, how to compete. (I'm still looking forward to the publication of the English translation of "Wege das Gewehr"). Martin ******************************************************************** Jim, You've already received some excellent advice already so I'll add some quick points before I zip off to bed. Something that would help greatly is if you could provide some pics of your position so we can get an idea of what you're doing now and what equipment you have. IMHO, kneeling is the hardest position because there is so much interaction among the body parts. You may have a body configuration that doesn't allow you to get in a decent position. Or if you're using a beginner rifle that doesn't adjust in the butt, you may be sacrificing the position so you can see through the sights. If you're actually missing the bull sometimes, you definitely want a bigger front aperature now. The front aperature should allow you to keep the bull inside it during your best hold. It also should not be so small as to cause eye fatigue over the course of fire. Other than that, it's pretty much personal preference since everyone's eyes are different. Are you certain you're relaxed and the sling is doing all the work? Things I can think of off the top of my head that would cause a miss in kneeling because you aren't steady: - The sling is like a tourniquet on your arm or your upright leg is not balanced, causing a horrendous wobble like I've never seen. - Your whole body is off balance (so your movement is everywhere rather than just side to side) - The sling is too loose so you are holding the rifle up That's it for now. Report back with more details and preferably pics. The Editor ******************************************************************** Jim, One thing that really helps me in kneeling is after getting into position, close your eyes and consciously relax your body (especially, from the waist down and your back). That helps me find the balance point and ensures that I'm "naturally" pointing at the target. At times, I find that my whole position wants to tip over to the right. At that point, its time to get up and rebuild the position. In practice, I've tried to shoot with the position like that and it just doesn't work. At best, several of the shots will jump out to the 8 ring at 2 o'clock. Good stuff from everyone else, too. I agree that a 3.2 is waaay too small. I use around a 3.7 in kneeling, 3.9 standing, and a 3.6 prone. However, different things work for different people. In general, you're much better off with a front aperture that is too large, than one that is too small. Also, those sizes are for my rifle (1913) in "standard" length (no extension tube). Keep at it, you'll get there. Take Care, Mark ******************************************************************** Jim, From the "for what it is worth" department. Bill Pullum's book, "The New Position Rifle Shooting" and the AMTU International Rifle Manual available from the CMP (I do not think you have to belong to CMP to order manuals) and even the NRA Junior Rifle Handbook all have a lot of good information. Pullum's book is, I think, especially good. I have encouraged our juniors to study the Pullum book. We require our juniors to use the NRA and AMTU manuals. I know there are other materials out there but, these will help one to get started and, in my opinion, lay a good foundation. Your point about shooting being fun is important ... this is something we stress to our junior shooters. For what it is worth, it took me 35 years to acquire a new match rifle (Walther LG300 and also a KK 200 PM) ... everything else I had was used. It was a matter of priorities ... family, etc. I really enjoy the technical aspects of the sport, however, it is clearly possible to engage this sport at different levels and you just have to discriminate on what is important to you and weed out what is not so important. When you are up on the line, you ought to be having fun ... sure, competitive shooting is hard work but, it is something you should enjoy, regardless of where you place in a match. In my opinion, I think that you will find that most practice and match ammunition is capable of doing better than the average shooter ... ditto for match rifles. At the very top, good arguments can be made for using only the very best equipment and ammunition. But, as I told one of our juniors, there is no "silver bullet" in this sport ... equipment is a factor, certainly but, it is not the only factor. To be really good at this sport, it takes a realistic appraisal of one's capabilities and then a lot of dedication and sacrifice to extract the best one is capable of. Is it worth it? Up to the individual shooter ... what is the goal and what is the ultimate objective? I think those are good questions to be kept in mind. R/LAR [Editor - 2 other books I'd add are "On the Training of Shooters" by Reinkemeier and "Successful Rifle Shooting" by Parish. You can get both from Center Shot Sports or if you don't mind waiting, it's a bit cheaper to order from the British NSRA website. Both links are on my Links page.] ******************************************************************** Hi ... I began shooting smallbore competitively back in junior high (1964!) and was able to shoot into my first year in college. On two occasions, I had the opportunity to shoot high power competitively in the Marine Corps. It wasn't until I moved to Memphis that I was able to get back into the sport. Family, moves and career priorities precluded much shooting. I am a commercial pilot and coach a junior team as well as shoot smallbore and air myself with hopes of doing a little high power this coming year. I know what it is like to shoot with used gear ... I had a 52 Winchester throughout much of high school ... I used to gaze with longing at some of the kids I knew shooting the Anshutz and BSAs (popular back then in part thanks to Al Freeland). I bought a used Anshutz the first year I was in the Marines. The best ammunition I could afford was Winchester Western MK III ... Eley "Red" was a dream! However, and this is the point I want to make (as I have with juniors) ... the NRA has a classification program that allows competitors to compete at their current skill level. And, most equipment is capable of outshooting the shooter. One does not need to have the very best equipment to enjoy this sport and in my opinion, enjoyment is key. Shooting should be enjoyable ... that means different things to different people but, I look at it as enjoying whatever activity I am doing. My work is demanding but "fun" ... I love going to work. In the same vein, to shoot well, one is required to work at it but, again, one should enjoy the activity. As a junior coach/instructor, I know full well that most juniors will not do much with this sport past high school. But, they will understand firearms safety and, will hopefully have acquired the necessary skills to compete effectively for shooting scholarships. (Our team has a very narrow focus in that regard) I would hope that the juniors and their parents will also understand something of our Second Amendment rights and will be willing to vote for those candidates and support that legislation that will ensure those rights for generations to come. I apologize for the "sermon" but, I have been reading some of the recent emails about the value of this list and think it good. I generally skim through that which is not important to me and try to absorb (and pass along) that which I think is germane to my interests. Michael Ray has a good site and does a good job as editor ... I hope he keeps this up! R/Lee ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #10 Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm --=====================_-2090193549==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This is the second part of the "holiday issue".

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In this issue:

This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical!
Re: This list is too technical! / need kneeling position help
Re: need kneeling position help
Re: need kneeling position help
Re: need kneeling position help
Re: need kneeling position help
Re: need kneeling position help
Re: need kneeling position help
General comment (was This list is too technical!)

********************************************************************

Alright, where do I begin...
Perhaps you folks don't realize something here. Most shooters (myself
included) can't afford all of the things that are discussed on this
mailing list. I signed up on this list hopefully to learn something
about the precision shooting sport around the world. So far all I have
learned is how to decrease 10 shot group sizes by .5mm or so. To be
completely blunt with all of you, I used to be on a High School shooting
team and didn't have access to all the fancy stuff you guys use. 4 of
the guys on my team had brand new (at the time) Anschutz 1913 Supermatch
rifles, and me, I used a cut-down Remington 40X because I was too small
to hold an Anschutz in standing for more than 5 minutes. I used fairly
inexpensive ammo (all different kinds, whatever the school had available
- PMC, Remington, etc.) and could still shoot the pants off of half the
other shooters I competed against with their Anschutz's and
Feinwerkbau's and Eley ammo. So what is the enormous deal here?
I know everything now is so geared towards ultra-accuracy that no one
stops to think that all everything really comes down to is the shooter
taking one shot at a time. All I hear about is this rifle and that
rifle or this ammo or that reamer. What ever happened to mastering the
SPORT instead of mastering ways to make the sport far too easy?
I can think back to a time when I was in 9th grade (1989) and I laid
down in prone with my trusty 40X and a 100-pack yellow plastic box of
Remington ammo and proceeded to fire 100 dead-center or
darn-near-dead-center bullseye's in a row. Now you tell me, what more
can a person ask for? (Besides 100 dead center bullseye's standing.
Hehe) (Side note: I did miss the 101st, however, due to the sudden
onset of a sneezing fit as I was in the middle of squeezing off the
shot!)
My point to all of this, I think, is as follows:
I would love to read about new events in the shooting world and
achievements and maybe new product info would be great! But I must say,
if I have to read about someone reaming out their gun one more time I
could puke. That stuff should really be saved for the message boards,
and not general, circulative e-mail. I am a golf professional now, and
I play golf more than I shoot. But the same rule applies to golf as it
does shooting - if you can't use a set of clubs that is 30 years old and
score well, you aren't a very good golfer. Shooting goes right along
with that. Sure, I could have hit 100 in a row with an Anschutz, but
isn't it more fun to know that you don't NEED that gun to do it? I know
it is for me!
I just thought I would toss in my 2 cents. Thanks!
Vince Joaquin

********************************************************************

Here, here!! I'm with Vince on this one. He is right. Most people
that shoot cannot afford to fly to England to test new batches of
ammo, or spend thousands of dollars (US) on the latest and greatest
new barrel or stock. I also believe that most shooters do not have
convienent access to "competition quality" gunsmiths. Most of us,
myself included, like to shoot at local matches or leagues for fun.
Is that such a foriegn concept? Have most of you forgotten that?
It seems to me that many of the people on this site take their
shooting very seriously, and that's fine. I would like to go the the
US National Championships and the Olympics some day myself, but right
now I can't, so I work on my form and my shooting to improve my
scores. One day I'll "trade up" to an Anschutz so I can tryout for
the US Olympic Team, but right now I can't so I do the best that I
can.
I guess what I'm trying to say, in a round about sort of way, is
don't forget about us that shoot for fun, and try to remember back to
when you thought shooting was fun!
Continued success,
Jim Bongiovanni

********************************************************************

I write to support the comments made by Vince Joaquin and numerous others
regarding the lack of value to real shooters of this mailing list.
I refer to REAL shooters rather than "Technophiles" and "Barrow Pushers"
that dominate postings.
The Technophiles are those who argue endlessly the technical merits in
terms of nanospiffs (made up word) of one product over another. The Barrow
Pushers are those who use the forum as a vehicle to pursue their own
business interests (no names here).
I would point out that competitive shooting has many facets other than the
technical (ie equipment) and rather there should be equal emphasis placed
on physical technique, fitness training regimes, mental approach,
administration, training methods, match preparation, etc. etc. etc.
The lack of this material supports the statement within my title. I invite
you to vote with unsubscribe emails if you agree, then the organisers may
bring more relevance to those sportsman who seek to improve themselves and
are willing to share information to do it.
Mark Way

********************************************************************

>I write to support the comments made by Vince Joaquin and numerous others
>regarding the lack of value to real shooters of this mailing list.

In the 6+ years I've been doing this list, I've received nothing but
compliments except from those who don't care for certain members. You are
welcome to "vote with unsubscribe emails" if you wish, but just what are
you going to accomplish by that?

It seems absurd that I should have to remind you that this list survives
solely for its members, just like any other mailing list. You get out what
you put in. Thus, if you wish to receive "value", I'd recommend you start
asking the questions YOU deem important rather than complaining about the
questions others deem important.

The Editor

********************************************************************

Hi Mark,
As with all things on the "information highway" read this append with a
"grain of salt" and don't believe all you read...
In some ways I agree with you but I don't think that leaving the list
solves anything. To me that is akin to stuffing one's head back in the sand.
You are correct in that some of the discussions are between
high-performance shooters & coaches and much of it is unintelligible BUT
by sifting through it and applying some common-sense you can gather
ideas that will help you at whatever level you shoot at.
For example, there has been a discussion about fancy ammo testing setups
and xx.x mm wide groups with this or that type of ammo. But maybe what
you can take away is that different ammo and different batches of the
same ammo can affect your group size. I am sure that just trying
shooting groups with the different brands/lots available to you locally
may show that your rifle has a preference for one or another. The most
expensive ammo does not always shoot the best. If you are not confident
in shooting test groups from your shoulder then you could use sandbags
or whatever to provide a stable and repeatable rest.
You don't need the latest and newest equipment to shoot well. I managed
to do very well with a real old Anschutz Model 54 SuperMatch Free Rifle
that's almost as old as me and has a somewhat mushy trigger and no
ejector. I purchased this rifle nth hand for very little and used it to
learn to shoot free rifle. Once I was pushing my scores over 1100
_then_ I spent some big bucks on a new rifle. The new fancy rifle,
oddly enough, does not shoot tens all by itself but it does make it a
bit easier not to have to flick each spent casing out :-)
Getting better at shooting is a whole heap of nano-spifs. That is, I
can't say "today I will shoot better standing" but I might say "today I
will keep my feet in the right place while standing" and because of that
shoot just a small (nano ?) amount better.
So just be cool, let the technophiles techno, and the barrow pushers
barrow and just apply a common-sense filter to it all.
BTW, I think that the wax or hard coating on .22lr bullets is simply a
lubricant to prevent leading of the barrel and that you won't pick up
much lead from handling metallic lead (bullets) it's the vaporized lead
from the target end of the range and the rifle exhaust gas (lead sty. in
the primers) that you should worry about.

Shoot Ten's
Mike

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Personally, I enjoy seeing esoteric mailings that may or may not be
completely irrelevant to me, because it's interesting, and you don't
often get a chance to listen to these enthusiasts. Your mileage may
vary....if you want answers relevant to your interests, then start
asking the right questions.
I tend to be reactive on this list rather than proactive. Someone asks a
question; several highly able shooters may reply (Wayne Sorenson, for
instance); I listen, I learn. Where I am able to provide some input, and
possibly some help, I reply.
Now, if someone asks a question about ammunition selection (e.g. "how
good is Tenex EPS"), I can offer my experiences of firing differing batches
on the test range for a reasonably fact-based reply ("quite good, and here
are the numbers to prove it").
If someone asks "What can you tell me about System Gemini stocks", I can only
offer my own experiences - after all, a new stock is a serious amount of
cash (it certainly was to me - I managed to walk up to Rajmond Debevec at
ISAS 1997 to ask his opinions on what he though about bedding into
aluminium instead of wood, and he took the time to give me a serious answer)
As for "technophile", I got into the prone final of the 1st Commonwealth
Shooting Federation championships in Delhi, 1995, using my first rifle
(a fifteen-year-old, second-hand, unmodified Anschutz 1413) which I had
purchased for the princely sum of 250GBP (about $350 USD) from someone
who was giving up the sport, and wanted to pass on his kit to someone
who was enthusiastic (I had just finished being a student, and wasn't rich).
The only modification I had made was taping chamois leather to the
cheekpiece to stop sweat making the wood slippery.
So, a big thankyou to Al Murchison, because his 1413 barrel and action
went to a Commonwealth Games and three Commonwealth Championships, and
only got switched to being my backup rifle this summer because I found
a better batch of ammo for my existing backup barrel.
So yes, I may be able to discuss the merits of ammunition selection, but
then I also enjoy doing local leagues with fellow club members (and
boy, do I occasionally get a humility lesson from the older and wiser)

Martin Sinclair

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I'm with Martin on this one. The "organisers" don't determine what's
on this list, that's down to those who read and contribute - what
Michael does is provide the means for the discussion to take place,
and we should thank him rather than complain. If you want to see
other aspects discussed then start the discussion - it's as simple as
that. Perhaps look at the archive though, and you will see that
tuning barrels and ammunition selection are only one of many topics
raised here, and beware some of the more bizarre responses you will
get (not mentioning any names)...
On a really picky note, perhaps our intolerant friends would like to
consider that there are some shooters with internet access outside
the US, and for some us a trip to the Eley factory to test ammunition
means getting in the car. We know that shooters from many countries
come to Birmingham to test Eley ammunition, so why shouldn't we pass
on what we've learned to someone contemplating that level of
committement to their sport?

Donald McIntosh

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I totally disagree with Mr. Mark Way.
i'm a portuguese shooter and i'm in this mailing list within 1 year. I'm at high level National competition and I learn many things during this year, such as ammunition, shooting clothing, mental shooting, information about internet sites of shooting, etc....
So, it's not fare Mr. Mark Way try to pursuade people to subscribe or unsubscribe this mailing list. Who don't want to receive this mails anymore just unsubscribe and that's it.....
best regards Michael and .."the life must go on.."
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year for all...

Rui Alves
Portugal

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I hope that I didn't sound ungrateful in my last message. I am new
to the sport, and much of the techno stuff I find a little more that
confusing at times. Right now my main goal is to hit all of the
targets in kneeling and standing. Not well, just hit them. I'll
work on well later. Any tips for kneeling? I can't seem to hold the
rifle steady (my last score was a 45/100. Ouch!)

I enjoy hearing about the sport for our international friends. I
find it quite interesting to see the sport from the perspective from
people in Britian, India, Portugal, etc. Maybe I'll even meet some
of them at future (very distant future) World Cup Matches or the
Olympics.
Keep up the good work, God bless, and Happy Holiday!

Continued success,
Jim Bongiovanni

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Hi Jim,
I find that most people's problems getting going in kneeling and
standing are that they are both trying too hard and expecting the rifle
to be as steady as in prone. Keeping in mind that I am not a coach nor
a shooter at the level of Wayne S. (yet :-) but what has helped me in
kneeling and standing is to
a) Spend the time to make sure that your position is centered on the
target. This should help reduce the side to side wobble that you may be
seeing.
b) Use a large front sight insert, maybe 4.0, 4.2, whatever. This way
you won't be over-reacting when the bull moves off center and trying to
correct too abruptly. Then with the large insert don't worry too much
if the bull is not perfectly stead and centered to start with, just
execute good shots.
There is much more but I think if you just work on one little thing at a
time it will eventually all come together and before you know it you
will be one of the techophiles trying to improve that slight little bit
that will gain you one more point over 600 :-)

Shoot Tens !
Mike

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I agree with the above (I've had a frustrating time kneeling recently, and
it has absorbed nearly 50% of my training effort, more at times) and
would add that it's worthwhile making sure that your lower body is relaxed.
This is right-hand-biased, so you may have to reverse parts of the
following...
When you're standing, it's obvious when you're reasonably well balanced,
because you don't fall over. When you're kneeling, you're essentially a
tripod and it's easier to get yourself into a position where you're holding
yourself in place with musclepower [a bad thing]. It's also easy to use
musclepower to shift aim onto the target, rather than reorienting the whole
position [similarly, a bad thing].
So, try feeling to make sure that your left leg sits in position, with the
shin vertical (in the left / right direction; you may end up slanting your
shin front / back) with no effort at the pelvis from the muscles that sit
around your hip. Keep the area around your hips / lower stomach clear so
that the major arteries aren't compressed by anything.
(my trousers are undone at the waist when kneeling, and folded back so that
they don't come between left lower abdomen and left upper thigh. My jacket
is only fastened for the top half of the buttons)
Try keeping your centre of gravity back towards your kneeling roll rather
than forwards toward the left knee; the knee's got enough weight on it
already with the rifle.
Also, try keeping your centre of gravity left, so that it's over a line
between your left foot and the kneeling roll.
Play around with where you put your centre of gravity, until you find
something that works; this will take some time, but it makes a big
difference to your stability. You should end up almost totally relaxed.
There's no substitute for experimentation and training on this one,
I'm afraid :-(
Finally, try shooting prone with 3.7 or 3.8 foresight for ISSF (UIT)
targets, and see if it makes a difference to your scores. I found 3.7
about right for prone, and started out at 4.2 for standing/kneeling.
I move up to 3.8 prone if feeling nervous :-) :-)
I'm surprised that you use a 3.2 foresight (is the aiming mark on an
A-17 the same apparent size as on an A-36?) as I just can't work
that small......
Hopefully, the above tips will give you something to try out the next
time you shoot. Have fun!

Martin Sinclair

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James Bongiovanni wrote:
>
> Martin,
> I'll give your suggestions a try. It couldn't hurt!
> As for the size of the aiming marks on the 50ft
> targets, the A-17 (American) is 1.483" in diameter and
> the A-36 (UIT) is 1.393" in diameter. Yes, the 3.2 is
> a little tight on both. I was told earlier that the
> white around the target should be about the dame
> thickness as the ring in the front aperture. DO you
> agree?

Not really; after all, if you had a really thin foresight
element, by that measure you would end up with a really
small front aperture.
Try 3.7 for the A-36, try a few groups, and play around
with what works for you. Two shooters may prefer two totally
different sight pictures.
I'd agree with the advice that says "have a look at Pullum
and Hahnenkrat", the new book looks quite good. Another
book that is full of good advice is Ralf Horneber's.
That is, how to build a position, how to train, how to
compete.
(I'm still looking forward to the publication of the English
translation of "Wege das Gewehr").

Martin

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Jim,
You've already received some excellent advice already so I'll add some
quick points before I zip off to bed.
Something that would help greatly is if you could provide some pics of your
position so we can get an idea of what you're doing now and what equipment
you have. IMHO, kneeling is the hardest position because there is so much
interaction among the body parts. You may have a body configuration that
doesn't allow you to get in a decent position. Or if you're using a
beginner rifle that doesn't adjust in the butt, you may be sacrificing the
position so you can see through the sights.
If you're actually missing the bull sometimes, you definitely want a bigger
front aperature now. The front aperature should allow you to keep the bull
inside it during your best hold. It also should not be so small as to cause
eye fatigue over the course of fire. Other than that, it's pretty much
personal preference since everyone's eyes are different.
Are you certain you're relaxed and the sling is doing all the work?
Things I can think of off the top of my head that would cause a miss in
kneeling because you aren't steady:
- The sling is like a tourniquet on your arm or your upright leg is not
balanced, causing a horrendous wobble like I've never seen.
- Your whole body is off balance (so your movement is everywhere rather
than just side to side)
- The sling is too loose so you are holding the rifle up
That's it for now. Report back with more details and preferably pics.

The Editor

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Jim,
One thing that really helps me in kneeling is after getting into position,
close your eyes and consciously relax your body (especially, from the waist
down and your back). That helps me find the balance point and ensures that
I'm "naturally" pointing at the target. At times, I find that my whole
position wants to tip over to the right. At that point, its time to get up
and rebuild the position. In practice, I've tried to shoot with the
position like that and it just doesn't work. At best, several of the shots
will jump out to the 8 ring at 2 o'clock.
Good stuff from everyone else, too. I agree that a 3.2 is waaay too small.
I use around a 3.7 in kneeling, 3.9 standing, and a 3.6 prone. However,
different things work for different people. In general, you're much better
off with a front aperture that is too large, than one that is too small.
Also, those sizes are for my rifle (1913) in "standard" length (no extension
tube).
Keep at it, you'll get there.
Take Care,
Mark

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Jim,
From the "for what it is worth" department. Bill Pullum's book, "The New
Position Rifle Shooting" and the AMTU International Rifle Manual available
from the CMP (I do not think you have to belong to CMP to order manuals) and
even the NRA Junior Rifle Handbook all have a lot of good information.
Pullum's book is, I think, especially good. I have encouraged our juniors to
study the Pullum book. We require our juniors to use the NRA and AMTU
manuals. I know there are other materials out there but, these will help one
to get started and, in my opinion, lay a good foundation.

Your point about shooting being fun is important ... this is
something we stress to our junior shooters. For what it is worth, it took me
35 years to acquire a new match rifle (Walther LG300 and also a KK 200 PM)
... everything else I had was used. It was a matter of priorities ... family,
etc. I really enjoy the technical aspects of the sport, however, it is
clearly possible to engage this sport at different levels and you just have
to discriminate on what is important to you and weed out what is not so
important. When you are up on the line, you ought to be having fun ... sure,
competitive shooting is hard work but, it is something you should enjoy,
regardless of where you place in a match. In my opinion, I think that you
will find that most practice and match ammunition is capable of doing better
than the average shooter ... ditto for match rifles. At the very top, good
arguments can be made for using only the very best equipment and ammunition.
But, as I told one of our juniors, there is no "silver bullet" in this sport
... equipment is a factor, certainly but, it is not the only factor. To be
really good at this sport, it takes a realistic appraisal of one's
capabilities and then a lot of dedication and sacrifice to extract the best
one is capable of. Is it worth it? Up to the individual shooter ... what is
the goal and what is the ultimate objective? I think those are good questions
to be kept in mind.

R/LAR

[Editor - 2 other books I'd add are "On the Training of Shooters" by Reinkemeier and "Successful Rifle Shooting" by Parish. You can get both from Center Shot Sports or if you don't mind waiting, it's a bit cheaper to order from the British NSRA website. Both links are on my Links page.]

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Hi ... I began shooting smallbore competitively back in junior high (1964!)
and was able to shoot into my first year in college. On two occasions, I had
the opportunity to shoot high power competitively in the Marine Corps. It
wasn't until I moved to Memphis that I was able to get back into the sport.
Family, moves and career priorities precluded much shooting. I am a
commercial pilot and coach a junior team as well as shoot smallbore and air
myself with hopes of doing a little high power this coming year. I know what
it is like to shoot with used gear ... I had a 52 Winchester throughout much
of high school ... I used to gaze with longing at some of the kids I knew
shooting the Anshutz and BSAs (popular back then in part thanks to Al
Freeland). I bought a used Anshutz the first year I was in the Marines. The
best ammunition I could afford was Winchester Western MK III ... Eley "Red"
was a dream! However, and this is the point I want to make (as I have with
juniors) ... the NRA has a classification program that allows competitors to
compete at their current skill level. And, most equipment is capable of
outshooting the shooter. One does not need to have the very best equipment to
enjoy this sport and in my opinion, enjoyment is key. Shooting should be
enjoyable ... that means different things to different people but, I look at
it as enjoying whatever activity I am doing. My work is demanding but "fun"
... I love going to work. In the same vein, to shoot well, one is required to
work at it but, again, one should enjoy the activity. As a junior
coach/instructor, I know full well that most juniors will not do much with
this sport past high school. But, they will understand firearms safety and,
will hopefully have acquired the necessary skills to compete effectively for
shooting scholarships. (Our team has a very narrow focus in that regard) I
would hope that the juniors and their parents will also understand something
of our Second Amendment rights and will be willing to vote for those
candidates and support that legislation that will ensure those rights for
generations to come.
I apologize for the "sermon" but, I have been reading some of the recent
emails about the value of this list and think it good. I generally skim
through that which is not important to me and try to absorb (and pass along)
that which I think is germane to my interests. Michael Ray has a good site
and does a good job as editor ... I hope he keeps this up! R/Lee

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End of UIT Mailing List #10

Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm
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