From topshot@indy.net Sat Sep 30 16:50:58 2000 Return-path: Envelope-to: dennehym@localhost Delivery-date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:50:58 +0100 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] ident=dennehym) by sparks.cs.tcd.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13fOuc-0005bM-00 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:50:54 +0100 Received: from mail.cs.tcd.ie by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.3.3) for dennehym@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:50:54 +0100 (IST) Received: from mail005.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT001.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.71]) by relay.cs.tcd.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA17777 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:48:29 +0100 (IST) Received: (qmail 23102 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2000 15:46:12 -0000 Received: from ip209-183-88-86.ts.indy.net (HELO raym-pc-1.indy.net) ([209.183.88.86]) (envelope-sender ) by mail005.mail.onemain.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Sep 2000 15:46:12 -0000 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20000930101641.00c5e100@pop.indy.net> X-Sender: topshot@pop.indy.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:46:52 -0500 To: topshot@indy.net From: Michael Ray Subject: UIT Mailing List Vol. 5 - #2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-2024933721==_.ALT" X-UIDL: Kb6"!l=W"!fla!!mo("! Status: RO Content-Length: 13935 Lines: 261 --=====================_-2024933721==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. In this issue: Re: Machine rest comparison Re: Machine rest comparison Re: Machine rest comparison Trade custom 1911 for smallbore Olympic shooting pics online Need items for Stuff For Sale list ****************************************************************** A followup to my machine rest comparison. I just happened across the documentation I had for Angie's Rifle Rest and you can see more about it at http://www.rjr3.com/cgi-bin/miva?/Merchant/merchant.mv+Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RS&Category_Code=R1 Make sure you paste all that back together from http to R1 if it breaks up in this message or just go to http://www.rjr3.com/ and you can search from there. Michael Ray, Editor ******************************************************************** > I'm quite surprised you can notice differences in torque at > 50 feet. I haven't gotten diff ammo to test yet, but I would be > surprised that I would see much diff between good brands at 50 feet, Anything that makes a difference at 50 yards or 500 yards, will also make a difference at 50 feet; except possibly velocity variations since gravity works as the square of the distance. Certainly the change in group size is smaller, but then so is the target smaller, so it still costs you points. Using a cheap DCM rifle with different ammo, the group size with one ammo is 3X another, and not only with cheap ammo; every gun likes some particular brands better than others and sometimes particular lots. I'm sure you will see the same variation with a better barrel, just 3X a smaller best group and you might need the fancy rest to measure the smallest groups. > Out of curiousity, do adjust both (or all 4) bolts to the same > settings on each trial or change them independently?] The easiest way to test and to repeat the setting later, is to torque all the bolts to the same setting on each trial. One of these should work as well as you can get with that rifle. BTW, the best torque setting with one ammo is not necessarily the best setting for another. You are changing the vibration pattern of the barrel until it happens to have a null at the time the bullet leaves the muzzle. - Benjamin McLeod [Editor - what I was trying to get across was I was having difficulty noticing the difference in group size at 50 feet so I test at the max distance I can where I can see the diff better. My kids are not the top of the NCAA so an extra mm won't make much diff in our team score as it would for the top 5 teams where it may come down to center shots such as Bill notes in the below reply. However, not that I have discovered that our rifles do not like the ammo we've been using at all, I'm definitely going to find something else even though it will cost me so we aren't just throwing points away. The A-36 we use in the US at 50 feet is not a hard target so I didn't expect "match" ammo to not shoot all 10s whereas the newer target that is more accurately scaled from 50m I could believe it. Now I can see that it does matter on the A-36 as well.] ******************************************************************** Regarding differences in ammo/torque, etc at 50ft- You're right that the observable difference in group size is not particularly significant when considered group-to-group. But when you take into account the size of the target at 50ft, a difference of even 1MM can matter a great deal. Suppose the difference from smaller group size is such that 2 shots out of 120 plug in instead of out. Over the course of a 4-person team collegiate match, this means a difference of at least 8 points. By not finding the most accurate combination for our shooters, it's almost like telling one of them to shoot a 2 instead of a 10. My guess is that as close as some scores are these days, the edge we get from the right combination of ammo and rifle may be the difference between winning and losing. As to how to torque- Normally, I torque the front screw first and then the rear on a two-screw action. But this also depends on the rifle. In addition, different torque may be needed on each screw, so that should be checked as well. I recognize that this may seem a little overkill. I would be the first to say that equipment is not the most important thing a person needs to be a great shooter. However, at a certain point in a shooter's progress the issue of equipment accuracy and reliability become important. Not that the shooter needs to become a gunsmith, but simply that the shooter has complete confidence in the ability of the rifle and ammo to do what the shooter is asking them to do. Bill Kelley Navy Rifle [Editor - I totally agree in your situation. Excellent post] ******************************************************************** I'm kind of in a bind. I have a 1911 that was custom built in the 1980's by a smith, but I don't know all the features. I'd like to trade/trade-up this item for a smallbore rifle. I'm willing to add up to $200. If someone has a pistol that they are willing to trade instead, I can throw in my Ruger 22/45 to add $$. To given comfort to the trader, I'm willing to allow a 3-day inspection period after we do the trade. Any help/advice you can give me is appreciated. Regards, Satria R. Santoso satriasantoso@hotmail.com ******************************************************************** Hey friends check this out... http://www.pilkguns.com/fotos1.htm Chet Skinner, Coach Entity Sports International cskinner@dol.net http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html ******************************************************************** Shooters! The October edition of Stuff for Sale should be out in a few weeks, to include an update of the version on the Washington Smallbore web site. Anybody got anything they want to list? Similarly, anybody got anything listed that needs to come off? Please call or e-mail with the pertinent poop. Negative replies are not necessary. Happy haggling! John Crossman jcrossman@thurston.com [Editor - as always, email John directly.] ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #2 Michael Ray - Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm --=====================_-2024933721==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me.

In this issue:

Re: Machine rest comparison
Re: Machine rest comparison
Re: Machine rest comparison
Trade custom 1911 for smallbore
Olympic shooting pics online
Need items for Stuff For Sale list

******************************************************************

A followup to my machine rest comparison. I just happened across the documentation I had for Angie's Rifle Rest and you can see more about it at
http://www.rjr3.com/cgi-bin/miva?/Merchant/merchant.mv+Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RS&Category_Code=R1
Make sure you paste all that back together from http to R1 if it breaks up in this message or just go to http://www.rjr3.com/ and you can search from there.

Michael Ray, Editor

********************************************************************

> I'm quite surprised you can notice differences in torque at
> 50 feet. I haven't gotten diff ammo to test yet, but I would be
> surprised that I would see much diff between good brands at 50 feet,

Anything that makes a difference at 50 yards or 500 yards, will also
make a difference at 50 feet; except possibly velocity variations since
gravity works as the square of the distance. Certainly the change in
group size is smaller, but then so is the target smaller, so it still
costs you points. Using a cheap DCM rifle with different ammo, the group
size with one ammo is 3X another, and not only with cheap ammo; every
gun likes some particular brands better than others and sometimes
particular lots. I'm sure you will see the same variation with a better
barrel, just 3X a smaller best group and you might need the fancy rest
to measure the smallest groups.

> Out of curiousity, do adjust both (or all 4) bolts to the same
> settings on each trial or change them independently?]

The easiest way to test and to repeat the setting later, is to torque
all the bolts to the same setting on each trial. One of these should
work as well as you can get with that rifle. BTW, the best torque
setting with one ammo is not necessarily the best setting for another.
You are changing the vibration pattern of the barrel until it happens to
have a null at the time the bullet leaves the muzzle.
- Benjamin McLeod

[Editor - what I was trying to get across was I was having difficulty noticing the difference in group size at 50 feet so I test at the max distance I can where I can see the diff better. My kids are not the top of the NCAA so an extra mm won't make much diff in our team score as it would for the top 5 teams where it may come down to center shots such as Bill notes in the below reply. However, not that I have discovered that our rifles do not like the ammo we've been using at all, I'm definitely going to find something else even though it will cost me so we aren't just throwing points away.

The A-36 we use in the US at 50 feet is not a hard target so I didn't expect "match" ammo to not shoot all 10s whereas the newer target that is more accurately scaled from 50m I could believe it. Now I can see that it does matter on the A-36 as well.]

********************************************************************

Regarding differences in ammo/torque, etc at 50ft-
You're right that the observable difference in group size is not particularly significant when considered group-to-group. But when you take into account the size of the target at 50ft, a difference of even 1MM can matter a great deal. Suppose the difference from smaller group size is such that 2 shots out of 120 plug in instead of out. Over the course of a 4-person team collegiate match, this means a difference of at least 8 points. By not finding the most accurate combination for our shooters, it's almost like telling one of them to shoot a 2 instead of a 10. My guess is that as close as some scores are these days, the edge we get from the right combination of ammo and rifle may be the difference between winning and losing.
As to how to torque-
Normally, I torque the front screw first and then the rear on a two-screw action. But this also depends on the rifle. In addition, different torque may be needed on each screw, so that should be checked as well.
I recognize that this may seem a little overkill. I would be the first to say that equipment is not the most important thing a person needs to be a great shooter. However, at a certain point in a shooter's progress the issue of equipment accuracy and reliability become important. Not that the shooter needs to become a gunsmith, but simply that the shooter has complete confidence in the ability of the rifle and ammo to do what the shooter is asking them to do.
Bill Kelley
Navy Rifle

[Editor - I totally agree in your situation. Excellent post]

********************************************************************

I'm kind of in a bind. I have a 1911 that was custom built in the 1980's by a smith, but I don't know all the features. I'd like to trade/trade-up this item for a smallbore rifle. I'm willing to add up to $200.
If someone has a pistol that they are willing to trade instead, I can throw in my Ruger 22/45 to add $$.
To given comfort to the trader, I'm willing to allow a 3-day inspection period after we do the trade.
Any help/advice you can give me is appreciated.
Regards,
Satria R. Santoso
satriasantoso@hotmail.com

********************************************************************

Hey friends check this out...
http://www.pilkguns.com/fotos1.htm

Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
cskinner@dol.net
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html

********************************************************************

Shooters!
The October edition of Stuff for Sale should be out in a few weeks, to
include an update of the version on the Washington Smallbore web site.
Anybody got anything they want to list? Similarly, anybody got anything
listed that needs to come off? Please call or e-mail with the pertinent
poop. Negative replies are not necessary.
Happy haggling!
John Crossman
jcrossman@thurston.com

[Editor - as always, email John directly.]

********************************************************************
End of UIT Mailing List #2

Michael Ray - Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
--=====================_-2024933721==_.ALT--