From dennehym@cs.tcd.ie Tue Jul 25 13:58:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: from localhost (really [127.0.0.1]) by clubi.ie via in.smtpd with esmtp (ident dennehym using rfc1413) id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:58:09 +0100 (IST) Received: from mail.clubi.ie by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.2.1) for dennehym@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:58:09 +0100 (IST) Received: [from relay.cs.tcd.ie (relay.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.32.56] by iridium.medianet.ie (DIESPAM) with ESMTP id e6PCv6e02510 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:57:06 +0100] Received: from sparks.cs.tcd.ie (root@pc315.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.35.74]) by relay.cs.tcd.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA16819 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:57:05 +0100 (BST) Received: by cs.tcd.ie via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for mdennehy@clubi.ie; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:57:05 +0100 (IST) Resent-Message-Id: Received: from localhost (really [127.0.0.1]) by cs.tcd.ie via in.smtpd with esmtp (ident dennehym using rfc1413) id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:41:20 +0100 (IST) Received: from mail.cs.tcd.ie by fetchmail-4.6.4 POP3 for (single-drop); Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:41:20 IST Received: from pop1.indy.net (pop1.indy.net [199.3.65.111]) by relay.cs.tcd.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA17419 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:48:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from raym-pc-1.indy.net (ip209-183-88-106.ts.indy.net [209.183.88.106]) by pop1.indy.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27645; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:09:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20000723082917.00c47340@pop.indy.net> X-Sender: topshot@pop.indy.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:11:57 -0500 To: topshot@indy.net From: Michael Ray Subject: UIT Mailing List Vol. 4 - #25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_180255193==_.ALT" X-UIDL: m*%!!emL"!N!X!!B@V"! Resent-From: dennehym@cs.tcd.ie Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:57:05 +0100 Resent-To: Home Email Address Content-Length: 26674 Lines: 501 --=====================_180255193==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. In this issue: Eating and shooting Re: Need kneeling help Re: Eley grades Opinions on custom shooting clothes Shooting in rain Using a hook in prone National 3P air rifle camp (RI, USA) Int'l pistol match (NH, USA) ******************************************************************** > Wind drift. See my web site for a description of why slower subsonic > ammo drifts less in the wind. > http://www.feist.com/~benchrest/Rimfire_notes.html Item number 5 at > > [Editor - for those of you who haven't visited it, I will say Rich's > rimfire page has lots of nice tidbits and advice. You should check it Indeed. I have an addition to one comment... 64. Eating and Shooting I [original author] feel eating too soon before shooting 3P or prone can adversely effect my scores and I suspect the same with silhouette. I have demonstrated this in dry firing just before eating or after. Or before or after drinking coffee or tea. However shooting while hungry can be distracting for me also. For me, ideally is to eat moderately or lightly two to three hours prior to shooting and to become hungry right after my final shot. Experiment yourself with this. I can see a significant increase in gun movement If I ate or drank prior to shooting. I [Benjamin] agree with the above. I find it is easy to buy small boxes of raisins (sold in packages of several small boxes) and a jar of unsalted peanuts. I have tried eating a couple of boxes of raisins and perhaps an equal volume of peanuts starting 1 hour and ending 1/2 hour before a match, along with water both before and during the match. This seems to result in my best scores so far. This kind of food prevents the hungries and boosts blood sugar levels as required, without the sugar crash that results some time after eating candy or sugar drinks. - Benjamin McLeod ******************************************************************** On the subject of kneeling, I've spent the last two years working hard on it, and I still haven't got it right :-( but it's slowly improving. (note for below, I'm right handed) Personal observations (Your Mileage May Vary) - I would dearly like to sit on the side of my foot, as my wife does when shooting kneeling, but I've got a short back in relation to legs and arms, so it's not really possible without a very long sling, or a very sloped shin. After a year spent trying to find a stable kneeling position with a relaxed spine, I gave up - I kept falling to my right, I had a severe pulse, and the recoil went all over the place. The return to half-decent scores (ie better than my standing) came when I stopped trying to slump into a totally relaxed position, and went back to trying to balance more on the left hand side, ie lifting my right shoulder slightly. The position then goes into one where the rifle is sitting almost over the knee. Three personal notes. I traced a lot of pulse to bunching of the trousers between my left thigh and lower abdomen. I now fold my trousers and jacket completely out of the way (the Mouche trousers have a slit that runs down the left thigh allowing this). Another was working more at my right foot position; heel directly under the spine, making sure that the toe is square on to the ground. I'm sure plenty of people pointed out that your picture dcp_0132.jpg shows the boot sitting on the corner of the toe, rather than using the flat toe of the boot. I also relace the right boot between standing and kneeling, from a right-angled to a toe-pointed setup. Finally was a sentence in the Horneber book that I didn't appreciate the significance of; he suggested that if your recoil on firing was up and to the right for a right-handed shooter, your weight was too far to the right. Meanwhile, the scores reflect the conflict that comes from trying to move house, change jobs, and still compete; 89, 97, 97, 97 kneeling in my last 3x40 :-( Martin Sinclair ******************************************************************** Michael, I sent a note to Daniel who works for Eley, this is his reply. Curt Dear Kurt, To answer your questions: The main difference between Rifle and Pistol products of the same denomination (eg Standard/ Pistol Standard) is as follows: The Rifle product nominally have a muzzle velocity of 1085 fts/ sec. This compares to 1030 ft/ sec for the Pistol ammo. In practice, there is little or no difference in terms of accuracy, but you will find that the faster batches are consigned to Standard, and those at the slower end of the tolerance will be Pistol Standard. Same thing for Target/ Target Pistol. We essentially have two production lines at Eley. One makes white bullet product; Tenex. The other; Black bullet product (Target, Standard, Club). We test ammo in four Anschutz rifles. Tenex quality is paramount to us. If the ammo being tested isn't up to the level we think it should be, we now will sell it as Match Xtra Plus. Match Xtra was previously a black bullet product - and frankly, far inferior to the current black box product; MXPL. MXPL is an excellent product, and has been selling really well. It's a similar situation with the black bullet products. Differences in how they proof test will be reflected in how the ammo is packaged and sold. Tenex is now the best target ammo you can buy. It wasn't maybe two years ago. But with the improvements we've made, there isn't any other ammo being made now which can match it. If you can tell me what your requirements are, I am happy to make some recommendations. Best Regards Daniel P.S. Will you be at Camp Perry this year? - I'll be there for a few days. Unfortunately, it's not going to be for long, as I'm also doing the Atlanta World Cup. ******************************************************************** I have several Junior shooters who are finally "full grown" (I hope) and are ready for a custom fit shooting suits. Now comes the big question. What manufacturer should we choose? I'm sure the old adage applies "you get what you pay for" and with prices ranging from $700 to $1,100, it's time to figure out what we "get" ... as opposed to what we need. We are considering the following: Thune, Sauer, Mouche, Kusterman and Custom (am I leaving someone out?). Although it's easy to look at a Thune and see that it is an excellent suit, it's less obvious to tell the subtle differences among "the best" Why not ask the consumers? In your "expert" opinions, what manufacturers offer the best value, and why? What about longevity, and quality? What suit adapts the best to "all the positions"? Who's fitting system works the best? How about time for production? I'm sure there is a great "brand following" among shooters, however, this preference often follows satisfaction. I don't think money is the issue, but value is. Thanks for your honest opinions. Paul Becks Head Coach - Ashland Eagles JRC [Editor - I can see this can easily start a flame war. I think the first 4 you list would be commonly considered the "best" and are readily available in the US. Generally it comes down to which style you prefer for your positions so look for features that may improve weaknesses (eg, if your kneeling leans far forward you need pants that open very widely to get the material out of the way). As to fit, I know of several people who are disappointed with the fit with all of them (except Kust since I don't know anyone who wears them), even when the "head person" did the fitting so it's hit or miss. If it were me, I'd go for Mouche or Sauer.] ****************************************************************** The 2000 Ontario Smallbore Championships were shot last weekend in Beachburg (about 150 km northwest of Ottawa) in somewhat damp and gloomy conditions, and while I shot a reasonable 1157 (576/581), I thought I would ask the listmembers if they had any hints, tips or anecdotes about shooting in the rain. Things such as aperture sizes, use of polarisers or filters, etc. In case anyone is curious, Greg Sych of Kitchener won the overall prone title with an 1183 (594/589). Jason Jarvis Kitchener, ON marynjson@golden.net [Editor - IMHO, filters are essential for optimum performance of my eyes in various light conditions. I would have used a yellow or perhaps peach or amber filter in heavy overcast/rain. I like shooting in those conditions, too (as long as I'm covered!). If it lets up and the sun quickly comes out, watch for mirage cauing bullets to impact high.] ******************************************************************** I have been using a hook in the prone position with mixed results. Does it really make a difference in prone shooting or is it used mostly out of habit? I can understand the advantages in the standing and kneeling positions but in prone with the check pressure the hook moves down anyways. It may offer some lateral support but in it keeps the butt plate from coming in really close to the neck and shoulder pocket. Unless ofcourse I am making a mistake in setting it up. I use the standard Anschutz hook, which comes with the Mo. 1913. Can anyone in the forum comment and advise? Good shooting all. Usman [Editor - I think it's used out of habit. You'll notice most prone-only shooters do not use a hook. I know several 3p shooters who will switch buttplates. You could try it without the hook or without the tail part of the hook on and see how that feels for you.] ******************************************************************** I am hoping that you can post some info for me on your site. I will be holding a NRA Coach Certification School for Rifle on August 31-September 1 (Thursday, Friday) as well as a NRA NATIONAL 3-Position AIR RIFLE CAMP and a State Junior Olympic Smallbore Camp September 2, 3 & 4. Both of these events will be held at the Camp Fogarty Training Site, a National Guard facility in East Greenwich, RI. National Coach Trainer Howard Moody will be the primary instructor for the coach school. The National Guard Marksmanship Training Unit AND the Army Marksmanship Training Unit will each be sending 2-3 instructors for the Junior Camps. The coach school is being sponsored by the American Legion. This means that the usual fees of $80. to $200 for materials, etc. will be COVERED FOR FREE. In addition, for those traveling from out of town, billeting (very spartan) will be available at the Training Site at no charge. So, anyone who has been sitting on the fence about getting a coach school in should come on out for this one! The Junior Camps will run concurrently. As the NRA National Camp for 3-P Air, only intermediate and advanced shooters will be accepted. Spots are available in both sporter and precision. The RI Junior Olympic Smallbore Camp is designed for beginner through advanced shooters. Cost is $95. for the three day event and includes a camp tee-shirt, meals, lodging, match entry, targets, etc. Anyone interested in either of these events should contact Michele Makucevich at 401 682-2400. 58 Thayer Court, Portsmouth, RI 02871 or makpak3200@earthlink.net. ******************************************************************** You are invited to take part in the Hamilton 2000 Pistol Tournament for the international pistol disciplines being held on 29 and 30 July at Nashua Fish and Game (NFGA) located in Merrimack, NH. The tournament consists of the following matches: Air Pistol 8:00 & 11:00 AM 29 Jul Indoor Rapidfire 1:00 to 6:00 PM 29 Jul Indoor Free Pistol 9:00 AM 30 Jul Outdoor Std Pistol 12:30 PM 30 Jul Outdoor Centerfire 2:00 PM 30 Jul Outdoor Sport Pistol 2:00 PM 30 Jul Outdoor The tournament is sanctioned by USA Shooting and serves as a Preliminary TryOut (PTO) for next year's National Championship and for the US Team. An on-line program for the Hamilton is available at: http://www.nfga.org/be/00_6g.html For entry, a hardcopy program, or more information, contact John at perkins@net1plus.com NFGA's southern NH location makes us centrally located for New England's bullseye and international shooters. On-line programs and more information about NFGA activities are available at: http://www.nfga.org/be/be.html ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #25 Michael Ray - Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm --=====================_180255193==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me.

In this issue:

Eating and shooting
Re: Need kneeling help
Re: Eley grades
Opinions on custom shooting clothes
Shooting in rain
Using a hook in prone
National 3P air rifle camp (RI, USA)
Int'l pistol match (NH, USA)

********************************************************************

> Wind drift. See my web site for a description of why slower subsonic
> ammo drifts less in the wind.
> http://www.feist.com/~benchrest/Rimfire_notes.html Item number 5 at
>
> [Editor - for those of you who haven't visited it, I will say Rich's
> rimfire page has lots of nice tidbits and advice. You should check it

Indeed. I have an addition to one comment...
64. Eating and Shooting
I [original author] feel eating too soon before shooting 3P or prone can
adversely effect my scores and I suspect the same with silhouette. I
have demonstrated this in dry firing just before eating or after. Or
before or after drinking coffee or tea. However shooting while hungry
can be distracting for me also. For me, ideally is to eat moderately or
lightly two to three hours prior to shooting and to become hungry right
after my final shot. Experiment yourself with this. I can see a
significant increase in gun movement If I ate or drank prior to
shooting.

I [Benjamin] agree with the above. I find it is easy to buy small boxes
of raisins (sold in packages of several small boxes) and a jar of
unsalted peanuts. I have tried eating a couple of boxes of raisins and
perhaps an equal volume of peanuts starting 1 hour and ending 1/2 hour
before a match, along with water both before and during the match. This
seems to result in my best scores so far. This kind of food prevents the
hungries and boosts blood sugar levels as required, without the sugar
crash that results some time after eating candy or sugar drinks.

- Benjamin McLeod

********************************************************************

On the subject of kneeling, I've spent the last two years working
hard on it, and I still haven't got it right :-( but it's slowly
improving. (note for below, I'm right handed)

Personal observations (Your Mileage May Vary) - I would dearly
like to sit on the side of my foot, as my wife does when shooting
kneeling, but I've got a short back in relation to legs and arms,
so it's not really possible without a very long sling, or a very
sloped shin.

After a year spent trying to find a stable kneeling position with
a relaxed spine, I gave up - I kept falling to my right, I had a
severe pulse, and the recoil went all over the place. The return
to half-decent scores (ie better than my standing) came when I
stopped trying to slump into a totally relaxed position, and went
back to trying to balance more on the left hand side, ie lifting
my right shoulder slightly. The position then goes into one where
the rifle is sitting almost over the knee.

Three personal notes. I traced a lot of pulse to bunching of the
trousers between my left thigh and lower abdomen. I now fold
my trousers and jacket completely out of the way (the Mouche
trousers have a slit that runs down the left thigh allowing this).
Another was working more at my right foot position; heel directly
under the spine, making sure that the toe is square on to the
ground. I'm sure plenty of people pointed out that your
picture dcp_0132.jpg shows the boot sitting on the corner of the
toe, rather than using the flat toe of the boot. I also relace
the right boot between standing and kneeling, from a right-angled
to a toe-pointed setup. Finally was a sentence in the Horneber book that I didn't
appreciate the significance of; he suggested that if your recoil
on firing was up and to the right for a right-handed shooter,
your weight was too far to the right.
Meanwhile, the scores reflect the conflict that comes from
trying to move house, change jobs, and still compete;
89, 97, 97, 97 kneeling in my last 3x40 :-(

Martin Sinclair

********************************************************************

Michael,
I sent a note to Daniel who works for Eley, this is his reply.
Curt


Dear Kurt,
To answer your questions:
The main difference between Rifle and Pistol products of the same
denomination (eg Standard/ Pistol Standard) is as follows:
The Rifle product nominally have a muzzle velocity of 1085 fts/ sec. This
compares to 1030 ft/ sec for the Pistol ammo. In practice, there is little
or no difference in terms of accuracy, but you will find that the faster
batches are consigned to Standard, and those at the slower end of the
tolerance will be Pistol Standard. Same thing for Target/ Target Pistol.
 
We essentially have two production lines at Eley. One makes white bullet
product; Tenex. The other; Black bullet product (Target, Standard, Club).
We test ammo in four Anschutz rifles.

Tenex quality is paramount to us. If the ammo being tested isn't up to the
level we think it should be, we now will sell it as Match Xtra Plus. Match
Xtra was previously a black bullet product - and frankly, far inferior to
the current black box product; MXPL. MXPL is an excellent product, and has
been selling really well.

It's a similar situation with the black bullet products. Differences in how
they proof test will be reflected in how the ammo is packaged and sold.
Tenex is now the best target ammo you can buy. It wasn't maybe two years
ago. But with the improvements we've made, there isn't any other ammo being
made now which can match it.

If you can tell me what your requirements are, I am happy to make some
recommendations.

Best Regards
Daniel

P.S. Will you be at Camp Perry this year? - I'll be there for a few days.
Unfortunately, it's not going to be for long, as I'm also doing the Atlanta
World Cup.

********************************************************************

I have several Junior shooters who are finally "full grown" (I hope) and are ready for a custom fit shooting suits. Now comes the big question. What manufacturer should we choose? I'm sure the old adage applies "you get what you pay for" and with prices ranging from $700 to $1,100, it's time to figure out what we "get" ... as opposed to what we need.
We are considering the following: Thune, Sauer, Mouche, Kusterman and Custom (am I leaving someone out?). Although it's easy to look at a Thune and see that it is an excellent suit, it's less obvious to tell the subtle differences among "the best"
Why not ask the consumers? In your "expert" opinions, what manufacturers offer the best value, and why? What about longevity, and quality? What suit adapts the best to "all the positions"? Who's fitting system works the best? How about time for production?
I'm sure there is a great "brand following" among shooters, however, this preference often follows satisfaction. I don't think money is the issue, but value is.
Thanks for your honest opinions.
Paul Becks
Head Coach - Ashland Eagles JRC

[Editor - I can see this can easily start a flame war. <g> I think the first 4 you list would be commonly considered the "best" and are readily available in the US. Generally it comes down to which style you prefer for your positions so look for features that may improve weaknesses (eg, if your kneeling leans far forward you need pants that open very widely to get the material out of the way). As to fit, I know of several people who are disappointed with the fit with all of them (except Kust since I don't know anyone who wears them), even when the "head person" did the fitting so it's hit or miss. If it were me, I'd go for Mouche or Sauer.]

******************************************************************

The 2000 Ontario Smallbore Championships were shot last weekend in
Beachburg (about 150 km northwest of Ottawa) in somewhat damp and gloomy
conditions, and while I shot a reasonable 1157 (576/581), I thought I would
ask the listmembers if they had any hints, tips or anecdotes about shooting
in the rain. Things such as aperture sizes, use of polarisers or filters,
etc. In case anyone is curious, Greg Sych of Kitchener won the overall
prone title with an 1183 (594/589).
Jason Jarvis
Kitchener, ON
marynjson@golden.net

[Editor - IMHO, filters are essential for optimum performance of my eyes in various light conditions. I would have used a yellow or perhaps peach or amber filter in heavy overcast/rain. I like shooting in those conditions, too (as long as I'm covered!). If it lets up and the sun quickly comes out, watch for mirage cauing bullets to impact high.]

********************************************************************

I have been using a hook in the prone position with mixed results. Does it really make a difference in prone shooting or is it used mostly out of habit? I can understand the advantages in the standing and kneeling positions but in prone with the check pressure the hook moves down anyways. It may offer some lateral support but in it keeps the butt plate from coming in really close to the neck and shoulder pocket. Unless ofcourse I am making a mistake in setting it up. I use the standard Anschutz hook, which comes with the Mo. 1913.

Can anyone in the forum comment and advise?

Good shooting all.
Usman

[Editor - I think it's used out of habit. You'll notice most prone-only shooters do not use a hook. I know several 3p shooters who will switch buttplates. You could try it without the hook or without the tail part of the hook on and see how that feels for you.]

********************************************************************

I am hoping that you can post some info for me on your site. I will be holding a NRA Coach Certification School for Rifle on August 31-September 1 (Thursday, Friday) as well as a NRA NATIONAL 3-Position AIR RIFLE CAMP and a State Junior Olympic Smallbore Camp September 2, 3 & 4.

Both of these events will be held at the Camp Fogarty Training Site, a National Guard facility in East Greenwich, RI. National Coach Trainer Howard Moody will be the primary instructor for the coach school. The National Guard Marksmanship Training Unit AND the Army Marksmanship Training Unit will each be sending 2-3 instructors for the Junior Camps.

The coach school is being sponsored by the American Legion. This means that the usual fees of $80. to $200 for materials, etc. will be COVERED FOR FREE. In addition, for those traveling from out of town, billeting (very spartan) will be available at the Training Site at no charge. So, anyone who has been sitting on the fence about getting a coach school in should come on out for this one!

The Junior Camps will run concurrently. As the NRA National Camp for 3-P Air, only intermediate and advanced shooters will be accepted. Spots are available in both sporter and precision. The RI Junior Olympic Smallbore Camp is designed for beginner through advanced shooters. Cost is $95. for the three day event and includes a camp tee-shirt, meals, lodging, match entry, targets, etc.

Anyone interested in either of these events should contact Michele Makucevich at 401 682-2400.
58 Thayer Court, Portsmouth, RI 02871 or makpak3200@earthlink.net.

********************************************************************

You are invited to take part in the Hamilton 2000
Pistol Tournament for the international pistol
disciplines being held on 29 and 30 July at
Nashua Fish and Game (NFGA) located in Merrimack,
NH.

The tournament consists of the following matches:
Air Pistol 8:00 & 11:00 AM 29 Jul Indoor
Rapidfire 1:00 to 6:00 PM 29 Jul Indoor
Free Pistol 9:00 AM 30 Jul Outdoor
Std Pistol 12:30 PM 30 Jul Outdoor
Centerfire 2:00 PM 30 Jul Outdoor
Sport Pistol 2:00 PM 30 Jul Outdoor

The tournament is sanctioned by USA Shooting and
serves as a Preliminary TryOut (PTO) for next year's
National Championship and for the US Team. An on-line
program for the Hamilton is available at:
http://www.nfga.org/be/00_6g.html

For entry, a hardcopy program, or more information,
contact John at perkins@net1plus.com
NFGA's southern NH location makes us centrally
located for New England's bullseye and international
shooters. On-line programs and more information
about NFGA activities are available at:
http://www.nfga.org/be/be.html

********************************************************************
End of UIT Mailing List #25

Michael Ray - Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
--=====================_180255193==_.ALT--